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Post by desocupado on Sept 6, 2011 4:52:51 GMT
changelog
v1.04 - Changed the name as the acronym D.M. is quite bad.
v1.03 - Nerfed Paladin and Arcane Archer skills. Changed spells to be more like other quasi. Increased benefits for Arcane Archer control class.
v1.02 - Increased duration on some paladin spells
v1.01 - Added Shield AC bonuses, as ac was lacking
Well, these two classes lack a quasi, so why not combining them?
And here is the Holy Marksman, my first attempt of proposing a Quasi:
Description:
This Archer delivers justice with deadly accuracy as if the arrows weren't shot by mortals hands but by a deity.
Role:
He does more physical damage than a regular AA, but sacrifices some Arcane Archer and Paladin abilities.
Some paladin spells were changed to fit a ranged attacker role. He can still self buff and use regular breach like a regular paladin.
Requires:
12 Paladin & 16 Arcane Archer by level 30
-Pointblank Shot, Power Attack
-Greater Weapon Focus Long Bow
-Divine Might
Benefits/Effects:
Uses Charisma instead of Dexterity for Bow for AB if it's greater than dex.
They get the Epic weapon focus: Longbow for free upon qualifying.
Imbue arrow counts Paladin levels for DC and spell penetration calculation (capped to the normal limit) if class control is Arcane Archer.
Arcane Archer bows does 2 less dice of damage, than a regular Arcane Archer, but still keep the same progression (i.e. it's 47 level for 13d8 now)
Holy Marksmans can't use Death arrow, Hail of Arrows or Seeker arrows nor can they use Greater smiting.
Arcane Archer Levels count towards some Paladin spells:
I Divine Favor
II Lesser restoration and Eagle's Splendor
III Prayer, Greater Magic Weapon
IV Holy sword, Death Ward, Restoration and Freedom
Gets special version of some spells:
Divine favor - Damage bonus is increased by A.A. levels/3 (including Legendary levels if class control is Arcane Archer). Duration is increased by two turns.
Greater Magic Weapon - Also Works on bows
Holy Sword - When using a long bow casts "Holy bow", allowing arrow to breach target's magical buffs (but breach bypass is only valid only for melee weapons) and increasing attack bonus to 1 + CL/4 this version lasts CL turns instead of rounds.
Death ward - Grants the caster 10 + 1 per 2 Enchantment spell focus rank (i.e. 1-2 for greater and legendary) shield AC in addition to normal effects of normal effects. Lasts CL turns like regular Death Ward.
That means it sacrifices:
-From AA: Keen Bow, Death arrow, Hail of Arrows
-From Paladin: Smiting, Turn Undead
-Several epic bonus feats (3 compared to an A.A. or 4 compared to a Paladin)
Feedback is appreciated.
Justifications:
It is possible to have Paladin as control class, that means sacrificing 4 dices of bow damage and some physical damage, but gives decent LBAB, especially for non-bow weapons (rapier wit is interesting combo in this case)
Note that AA don't get tumble or disciple, and using bard for skill dump costs bow damage (as intended).
No matter what you do, he is better with a bow than with any other weapon (upon qualifying he has +12 AB with bows) but a builder can go: Cha with rapier wit, near full STR, Dex, Uni stats, use dev crit or not.
He's vulnerable to str and dex checks.
Aura of glory resistance bonus is not available unless CC is Paladin, which is fair enough.
Splashing an additional bard level at 40 ensures a very good UMD rank but cost 1 bow damage dice (as intended).
Ideas in progress/consideration:
Hail of arrows and seeker arrows could do Divine or Positive damage instead of Magic and be usable.
Some sort of personal reduction on piercing resistance (i.e. the not the % one) as his arrows bypass mundane defenses.
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Post by Yojimbo on Sept 6, 2011 5:13:40 GMT
Biggest problem I see with this is the same I have with those using PM and xDD w/ a non caster class. They require 1 or more levels of Wiz, Sorc, or Bard typically.
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Post by BigStick on Sept 6, 2011 10:20:04 GMT
The first thing I noticed is that since AA requires arcane spell casting abilities, you cannot ever get 12 Pal / 16 AA by level 28 as at least 1 caster level is required.
Also, how does it NOT get Turn Undead at level 3 and prevent it from getting to Paladin 21 and great smiting? With at least 26 AA levels it only loses 1 epic feat, replaced by the free EWF: Longbow.
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Post by fallenwizard on Sept 6, 2011 12:12:34 GMT
OK. Lets see the build options. 21pal/2bard/17AA. Paladin CC - easier route for oc/dc as paladin gets +4str/cha at LLs
Pharlan.
level order 1 bard, 12 pal, 17AA, 9pal, 1 bard.
creation/subby/60/2xD+arty+14
str 14/20/26/44 = 17mod, mighty caps at 16 so maxes phys damage
dex 14/14/15/33
con 10/10/10/30 (arty)
wis 10/14/14/32 (started with bard so dont have to have 11 start)
int 12/12/12/30
cha 16/20/46/64
on level ups +2str, +18cha or swap 2x great cha feats on great str
pre epic feats:
blooded
wep foc longbow
pointblank shot
greater wep foc longbow
rapid shot
imp crit long bow
powerattack
epic feats:
epic prowes
armor skin
cleave
great cleave
3x great cha
leg feats:
LSA tumble
LSA listen
leg wep foc
overwhelming crit
great cha 4
dev crit
divine shield
Skills: roughly 290 points
disc
listen
tumble
CA
like 5 in UMd, left overs conc
AC
10base
22 armor (medium bur)
10dex
20 def
20nat (strongheart)
20dodge
12tumble
2armor skin
2craft armor (maintaining 80 should be possible, but 120 hard)
=118 +divine shield IF it gets special allowance to be used as quasi for AC, otherwise just div imunity/KB
AB
19bab
10ebab
15lbab
8feats
9enc arrow
27 cha
20buffs
=108
11d8 dice on bows
AA CC 1bard/12pal/27AA, level order the same
Start/sub/60/2xd+arty+14
str 15/21/25/43
dex 14/14/14/32
con 10/10/10/30 (arty)
wis 8/12/12//30
int 12/12/12/30
cha 16/20/44/62
abilities: 4 on str, 16 on cha
pre epic feats:
blooded
wep foc longbow
pointblank shot
greater wep foc longbow
rapid shot
imp crit long bow
powerattack
epic feats:
armor skin
cleave
great cleave
4x great cha
AA bonus
epic prowess
overwhelming crit
dev crit
great dex
leg feats:
LSA tumble
leg wep foc
great cha 5-8
div shield
AC remains same, cept no possible div shield AC
AB
19 bab
10 ebab
9 lbab
8feats
14 enc arrow
26cha
20buffs
=106
skills
tumble
listen
CA
4umd at lvl 1
hide
some conc, possibly CW or CC 31 disc
15d8 dice on bow (max)
compared to each other:
AC is same unless divine shield adds AC on paladin CC, which'd be huuuge boost
AB is nearly same, definetly on good side
skills: Pal CC gets disc but not hide and viceverse on AA CC
damage: both have oc/dc and max mighty, AA CC gets +5 phys damage from enc arrow and 4d8 on bows.
AA CC gets unlimted Seeker/deatharrow/imbuearrow
I see no reason to go pal CC unless you drop oc/dc and get rapier focus feats for dual focus OR they get shield AC from divine shield even as Quasi.
Compared to generic 9monk/1wiz/30AA
AC on marksman is 15 less, unless pally version gets div shield AC to boost it
AB is same
Damage is elemental/exo the same, div might gives nice physical boost
No keen
Compared to non Quasi 9pal/1wiz/30AA
AC around the same, assuming normal uses armor aswell
AB likely to be higher on Quasi since normal AA cant get as high dex if want decent divine might
damage slightly more on quasi since will have more charisma than normal AA
normal AA has keen
Overall take:
I like the idea of giving use for other kind of AA's than monk splash ones, but all other types lacks the defence. Paladin CC marksman if allowed to use divine shield for AC would be decent option. It'd get much better physical damage but sacrafise 4d8 dice on bow for that. AA CC needs something more unique. Basicly as the way you propose, it is around +10-15 more phys vs current AA at cost of Keen and resistance to Dex checks.
Sure there are the spells you change, but those are very very minor.
This "quasi" would be acchieved just by allowing bow use cha for AB with feat taken, thou some mighty use cleric as 3rd class, but very unlikely. It'd also solve the problem of AC on divine shield.
Just my take on it ofcourse
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Post by desocupado on Sept 6, 2011 13:47:06 GMT
The first thing I noticed is that since AA requires arcane spell casting abilities, you cannot ever get 12 Pal / 16 AA by level 28 as at least 1 caster level is required. True true, changed to level 30. Also, how does it NOT get Turn Undead at level 3 and prevent it from getting to Paladin 21 and great smiting? With at least 26 AA levels it only loses 1 epic feat, replaced by the free EWF: Longbow. With at least 17 non Pal/CoT/BG level AB tops at 84, besides it has much less epic feats than a regular smiting class (which usually has 13). compared to each other: AC is same unless divine shield adds AC on paladin CC, which'd be huuuge boost True, perhaps it should get a special version of divine shield, or some spell change to mimic it. On the bright side, it already has extreme conceal against ranged attacks (instead of uber physical resistances, with aura of glory). But it's defenses could use a boost. AB is nearly same, definetly on good side skills: Pal CC gets disc but not hide and viceverse on AA CC damage: both have oc/dc and max mighty, AA CC gets +5 phys damage from enc arrow and 4d8 on bows. AA CC gets unlimted Seeker/deatharrow/imbuearrow Also loses +5 physical from divine favor. Between elemenal and physical that's less 21 damage on average per hit. I see no reason to go pal CC unless you drop oc/dc and get rapier focus feats for dual focus OR they get shield AC from divine shield even as Quasi. Some spell suggestion could help balance that. Help is appreciated. However a Melee build would get +8 from divine favor and keep divine might (at the cost of 50% cha). Also, since it has +8 Enchant arrows and longbow weapon focuses, it is still keeps +12 AB for longbows. It's supposed to be an archer after all. But since one intend to go melee, why not using a Uni build? Overall take: I like the idea of giving use for other kind of AA's than monk splash ones, but all other types lacks the defence. Paladin CC marksman if allowed to use divine shield for AC would be decent option. It'd get much better physical damage but sacrafise 4d8 dice on bow for that. AA CC needs something more unique. Basicly as the way you propose, it is around +10-15 more phys vs current AA at cost of Keen and resistance to Dex checks. Sure there are the spells you change, but those are very very minor. This "quasi" would be acchieved just by allowing bow use cha for AB with feat taken, thou some mighty use cleric as 3rd class, but very unlikely. It'd also solve the problem of AC on divine shield. Just my take on it of course Very good points. Thanks. It also should be noted that it can breach from very long range, all the time and has godly (pun intended) saving throws. Can use gmm/clang on party (if it has extend spell or it sacrifices divine favor) |
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Post by desocupado on Sept 6, 2011 13:50:16 GMT
But it still lacks something... Old version: Gets special version of some spells: Divine favor - Bonuses cap at A.A. levels/2 +1 (only regular levels count, basically it double the bonus from enchant arrows) Aura of glory - Casts a special version of Entropic Shield instead - granting CL + A.A. levels concealment against ranged attacks Holy Sword - Can also affect a bow DM is using (but breach bypass is only valid only for melee weapons) New version Divine favor - Bonuses cap at A.A. levels/2 (only regular levels count, basically it double the bonus from enchant arrows) Aura of glory - same effects as Camouflage Holy Sword - Can also affect a bow DM is using (but breach bypass is only valid only for melee weapons) Death ward - Grants 10 + Divination spell focus rank shield AC instead of normal effects. Maybe more bonuses when qualifying: Immunity to blindness/deafness and Legendary skill focus listen would be great additions as his deity is always helping him guide the arrows (or some silly excuse like that). It should requires blind fight in this case. Death ward could grant wis ac insted of fixed (shield of course, to prevent abusive ac) |
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Post by fallenwizard on Sept 6, 2011 15:07:38 GMT
Divine favor duration is rather short, tops 2 turns on a CC pally, well double with extend. One would have to wear quite a bit pally slot items to be able to keep div fav up.
I fail to see connection to camouflage with the quasi, or rather the self buff concealment in general. Instead for defencive boost for Divine-theme epic dodge given free migth suite better, "by the favor of Gods, you may evade one attack every round". Also aura of glory as its base version is one of the sweetest buffs there is.. Thou it propably should be changed into divine immunity from positive.
Breach on bow seems kinda OP to me, but might be fun. At the moment one could farm mord on-hit arrows from desert, but using them is some what troublesome. I'd propably change Holy Sword into "Holy Bow" which allows you to shield incoming attacks using the bow granting shield AC for CL (paladin only) / 3, cap at 10 at CL 30 + 1per focus in abjuration/divination. So CC paladin with tome would get 13 shield AC, AA CC +tome would get somewhere between 7 and 9 shield AC. Not sure about the duration of this spell. Shield AC is powerfull, but it is something you heavily rely on and you alrdy lose it on death and especialy AA CC lacks the slots.. So maybe 1turn/lvl.
Not sure if it'd be too powerfull, but having the exotics on AA bows that currently are 2d12 mag/neg be swapped into div/pos.
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Post by desocupado on Sept 6, 2011 15:54:25 GMT
Divine favor duration is rather short, tops 2 turns on a CC pally, well double with extend. One would have to wear quite a bit pally slot items to be able to keep div fav up. CL rounds would mean triple (so that works) I fail to see connection to camouflage with the quasi, or rather the self buff concealment in general. Instead for defencive boost for Divine-theme epic dodge given free migth suite better, "by the favor of Gods, you may evade one attack every round". Also aura of glory as its base version is one of the sweetest buffs there is.. Thou it propably should be changed into divine immunity from positive. It's was just for the sake of simplicity. But one can rely on ranger/druid for mass camo with hide. Breach on bow seems kinda OP to me, but might be fun. At the moment one could farm mord on-hit arrows from desert, but using them is some what troublesome. Something had to be fun. Paladin get breach bypassing immunity on hit, so they are still superior. I'd propably change Holy Sword into "Holy Bow" which allows you to shield incoming attacks using the bow granting shield AC for CL (paladin only) / 3, cap at 10 at CL 30 + 1per focus in abjuration/divination. So CC paladin with tome would get 13 shield AC, AA CC +tome would get somewhere between 7 and 9 shield AC. Not sure about the duration of this spell. Shield AC is powerfull, but it is something you heavily rely on and you alrdy lose it on death and especialy AA CC lacks the slots.. So maybe 1turn/lvl. Well that would make Paladin as CC more attractive, but that isn't the intention, just a possibility. After all he is an "Archer". Besides Paladin still get +4 str & cha on top of more AB. The Holy bow idea has more style tough. Not sure if it'd be too powerfull, but having the exotics on AA bows that currently are 2d12 mag/neg be swapped into div/pos. For the sake of simplicity better leave it as it is, same for Aura of glory. |
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Post by desocupado on Sept 8, 2011 23:51:06 GMT
It's kinda silly making something so similar to a Divine Slinger, the roles and even the ranged breach is quite similar already. Even if somewhat balanced it isn't quasi material as of now.
That being said, the best option, using some of the concept is trying some sort of merging between the mechanics of greater smiting and imbue arrow. Perhaps a ranged mini-smite every minute, but with hell's bows, one can do that sort of small chucks of exotic damage. so I ran out of ideas.
Perhaps a feat that requires Rapier wit and 15 dex to allow CHA for bows.
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