|
Post by AndyDeck on Jun 20, 2007 6:22:18 GMT
So basically, I could make a ranger/aa1 and probably have the same ab and do the same damage as a full AA30.. minus the largely ineffective 'bonus abilities' of aa... That is my problem with putting AA in the bottom legendary ab group instead of the top... It has always been my understanding that archers were supposed to have higher ab than most classes... It is difficult for me to argue this point when I am biased for AA builds.. hopefully someone will do some testing and post their opinion.. Let's be accurate - it's just not possible for a 1 AA splash to have the same AB or damage as a legendary AA. Making AA a Tier 3 just keeps it from being totally dominant. Splash AA w/1:1 & Tier 1 BAB legendary class (1 AA/1 Arcane/38 Ranger, for instance) 20 pre-Epic AB (only if all pre-epic are Ranger, else must lose at least one AB to an arcane caster class), 10 Epic AB, 15 Legendary AB for Tier 1 = 45 AB Minimum to be legendary AA: 20 AA/1 Arcane/19 something else 19 pre-Epic (Must lose the 1 AB to the arcane class this time to be able to get 20 AA), 10 Epic AB, 9 Legendary AB for Tier 3, and Enchant Arrow X for AA lvl 19+ = 48 AB Maximum for pure AA: 29 AA/1 Arcane/10 something else 19 pre-Epic (same as minimum case), 10 Epic AB, 9 Legendary AB for Tier 3, and Enchant Arrow XV for AA lvl 29+ = 53 AB And a final analysis to answer the inevitable cry of 'what about WM, why are they Tier 1'?' 10 1:1, 30 WM 20 pre-Epic, 10 Epic, 15 Legendary Tier 1, 1 Superior WF, 6 Epic SWF = 52 AB <edited to fix my math on WM SWF. Hm, comparing my effort to what Acaos wrote, I'm tempted to delete my whole message as pointless.>
|
|
|
Post by cathedralmaster on Jun 20, 2007 16:43:10 GMT
Maximum for pure AA: 29 AA/1 Arcane/10 something else 19 pre-Epic (same as minimum case), 10 Epic AB, 9 Legendary AB for Tier 3, and Enchant Arrow XV for AA lvl 29+ = 53 AB And a final analysis to answer the inevitable cry of 'what about WM, why are they Tier 1'?' 10 1:1, 30 WM 20 pre-Epic, 10 Epic, 15 Legendary Tier 1, 1 Superior WF, 6 Epic SWF = 52 AB In a perfect world that would be true. The problem is that you assuming the major splash class of an AA pre-epic is a top tier ab class - something that based on people's builds isn't a fair assumption to make. With the exception of Sonova's str archer, every arcane archer build on the board uses tier 2 ab classes as splash. With this in mind, what your looking at is: 10 monk, 1 wiz, 29 aa - +16 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) + 9 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 0 (WM bonuses) +15 (enchant arrow) = 50 ab 10 ftr, 28 wm, 2 rogue/monk/sd - +20 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) +15 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 7 (WM bonuses) + 0 (enchant arrow) = 52 ab
|
|
|
Post by AndyDeck on Jun 20, 2007 23:48:43 GMT
Maximum for pure AA: 29 AA/1 Arcane/10 something else 19 pre-Epic (same as minimum case), 10 Epic AB, 9 Legendary AB for Tier 3, and Enchant Arrow XV for AA lvl 29+ = 53 AB And a final analysis to answer the inevitable cry of 'what about WM, why are they Tier 1'?' 10 1:1, 30 WM 20 pre-Epic, 10 Epic, 15 Legendary Tier 1, 1 Superior WF, 6 Epic SWF = 52 AB In a perfect world that would be true. The problem is that you assuming the major splash class of an AA pre-epic is a top tier ab class - something that based on people's builds isn't a fair assumption to make. With the exception of Sonova's str archer, every arcane archer build on the board uses tier 2 ab classes as splash. With this in mind, what your looking at is: 10 monk, 1 wiz, 29 aa - +16 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) + 9 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 0 (WM bonuses) +15 (enchant arrow) = 50 ab 10 ftr, 28 wm, 2 rogue/monk/sd - +20 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) +15 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 7 (WM bonuses) + 0 (enchant arrow) = 52 ab Right, I left off the typical cases and tried to list only the most extreme. I don't think your data contradicts my premise, the counter-argument to ewstorm's contention that a Ranger with 1 AA splashed could out-AB the AA. It seems to me that the Tier 3 status of AA is meant to keep it on par with WM, instead of the dominance it would achieve at Tier 1 and +6 LBAB. I haven't calculated out other extreme cases. The classes that can now get trade-ins for Great Str feats don't fare any better as a result, but there are classes who get bonus attribute points in LL that might end up approaching the 50+ AB level described above. Blackguard, CoT, and Paladins with Great Smite get up to +10 free STR... I'd have to calculate it out further. Hm, now you've got me curious. Add standard strength to your #s, using easily available +2 base classes: 20 + 10 (pre-LL) + 10 (LL) + 12 (items) = 62 for a bonus of 26. 10 M/1 W/29 AA - 16 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) + 9 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 0 (WM bonuses) +15 (enchant arrow) +26 (Dex) = 76 ab 10 ftr, 28 wm, 2 rogue/monk/sd - +20 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) +15 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 7 (WM bonuses) + 0 (enchant arrow) + 26 (Dex or Str) = 78 ab Now a RDD build - 1 Bard 9 Fighter 30 RDD - +16 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) +12 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 0 (WM bonuses) + 0 (enchant arrow) +26 (STR) +9 (+18 STR from lvl 50 RDD) = 73 ab Let me see if I can cheese it: Bard 2 Paladin 28 RDD 10, take 20 Paladin pre-epic: +20 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) +15 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 0 (WM bonuses) + 0 (enchant arrow) +25 (STR) +4 (+8 STR for 10 RDD) +2 (+4 STR for legendary Paladin) +4 (+8 STR for 10 Great Smites by lvl 40) = 80 ab The max could have been 82, but there wasn't room for 10 Great Smites and 10 Great Strengths. I also left off weapon focus/epic weapon focus/epic prowess, which should be a wash. If the ideal AA were Tier 1 for LBAB, his AB would be 86. Hm, I think I lost track of my point in there while geeking out over the numbers. Oh yes, the 38 Ranger/1 W/1 AA splash can't out-AB the AA - I think you have to go to 20 R/1W/19 AA to hit an AB of 81 (+6 for Tier 1 LBAB, -5 for reducing Enchant from 15 to 10, +1 for not having to take W pre-epic vs my 70 AB 1:1 build. +3 more versus the build that uses a 3:4 class instead of a 1:1 class pre-epic). I think you'd actually get better results with Barbarian who gets +4 to STR, DEX, and CON by 60. Hm, the Barbaric Archer: 20 Barb/1 Wiz/19 AA +20 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) +15 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 0 (WM bonuses) + 10 (enchant arrow) + 26 (DEX) +2 (+4 Dex for Barb LL) = 83 ab I just might have to try that build, might be able to squeak out a dex archer who can get something out of his Mighty bows. But you'd be surrendering a lot of the AA special abilities... no unlimited specials at all, for instance, as the first one of those comes at AA level 22. Too many numbers - I'm going to stop while I'm ahead.
|
|
|
Post by atomicsomething on Jun 21, 2007 11:37:05 GMT
[quote author=cathedralmaster board=MODUpdate thread=1182100092 post=1182357790 Now a RDD build - 1 Bard 9 Fighter 30 RDD - +16 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) +12 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 0 (WM bonuses) + 0 (enchant arrow) +26 (STR) +9 (+18 STR from lvl 50 RDD) = 73 ab Let me see if I can cheese it: Bard 2 Paladin 28 RDD 10, take 20 Paladin pre-epic: +20 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) +15 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 0 (WM bonuses) + 0 (enchant arrow) +25 (STR) +4 (+8 STR for 10 RDD) +2 (+4 STR for legendary Paladin) +4 (+8 STR for 10 Great Smites by lvl 40) = 80 ab The max could have been 82, but there wasn't room for 10 Great Smites and 10 Great Strengths. Those two are highly theoric. To get Great Smite, you need 25 Base Charisma. It means you'll have to give up some STR boost (at creation and during leveling up) to be able to take the Great Smite Feat. Then you'll have no epic feats left to take EWF and EP when the other builds can take'm (it looses 3AB to a WM build who have no problem to fit in those). For RDD builds, you took into account in your base STR the Great STR epic feats, but most RDD builds cannot get more than 4 Great STR. I strongly suggest you to calculate ABs on already posted builds (Flurry of Arrows, Dusty's Pal, Smite- tacular, Pally Dragon ...), and make adjustments in feats to take into accounts this new constraint.
|
|
|
Post by AndyDeck on Jun 21, 2007 13:56:27 GMT
[quote author=cathedralmaster board=MODUpdate thread=1182100092 post=1182357790 Now a RDD build - 1 Bard 9 Fighter 30 RDD - +16 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) +12 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 0 (WM bonuses) + 0 (enchant arrow) +26 (STR) +9 (+18 STR from lvl 50 RDD) = 73 ab Let me see if I can cheese it: Bard 2 Paladin 28 RDD 10, take 20 Paladin pre-epic: +20 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) +15 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 0 (WM bonuses) + 0 (enchant arrow) +25 (STR) +4 (+8 STR for 10 RDD) +2 (+4 STR for legendary Paladin) +4 (+8 STR for 10 Great Smites by lvl 40) = 80 ab The max could have been 82, but there wasn't room for 10 Great Smites and 10 Great Strengths. Those two are highly theoric. To get Great Smite, you need 25 Base Charisma. It means you'll have to give up some STR boost (at creation and during leveling up) to be able to take the Great Smite Feat. Then you'll have no epic feats left to take EWF and EP when the other builds can take'm (it looses 3AB to a WM build who have no problem to fit in those). For RDD builds, you took into account in your base STR the Great STR epic feats, but most RDD builds cannot get more than 4 Great STR. I strongly suggest you to calculate ABs on already posted builds (Flurry of Arrows, Dusty's Pal, Smite- tacular, Pally Dragon ...), and make adjustments in feats to take into accounts this new constraint. You're right, I did not account for the effect of all the Greater Toughness feats on the pure RDD. I think I'm done with these calculations, all I've 'proved' so far is that the DM team really does try to balance the classes, which we already knew Figuring out the feats in the CBC just takes too long for me to do a full job,
|
|
|
Post by lala on Jun 21, 2007 15:05:18 GMT
Maximum for pure AA: 29 AA/1 Arcane/10 something else 19 pre-Epic (same as minimum case), 10 Epic AB, 9 Legendary AB for Tier 3, and Enchant Arrow XV for AA lvl 29+ = 53 AB And a final analysis to answer the inevitable cry of 'what about WM, why are they Tier 1'?' 10 1:1, 30 WM 20 pre-Epic, 10 Epic, 15 Legendary Tier 1, 1 Superior WF, 6 Epic SWF = 52 AB In a perfect world that would be true. The problem is that you assuming the major splash class of an AA pre-epic is a top tier ab class - something that based on people's builds isn't a fair assumption to make. With the exception of Sonova's str archer, every arcane archer build on the board uses tier 2 ab classes as splash. With this in mind, what your looking at is: 10 monk, 1 wiz, 29 aa - +16 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) + 9 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 0 (WM bonuses) +15 (enchant arrow) = 50 ab 10 ftr, 28 wm, 2 rogue/monk/sd - +20 (BAB) +10 (epic levels) +15 (LL bonus dependant on control class) + 7 (WM bonuses) + 0 (enchant arrow) = 52 ab You could have a case arguing for them to be Tier 2 but Funky did also mention AA also get other abilities closer to that of mages, such as Wail/Interposing. One thing missing from the analysis is that AA get Great Dex as bonus feats while WM do not get either dex or str feats. This could mean its far easier to hit 10 Great Dex as AA than it is for WM and could have a part to play on the discussion. Lala
|
|