Avenger (Druid+CoT)

[desocupado]

This unlikely combination could yield some fun results.

Version history:
1.02 Added some summon improvements to incentive Druid-CC builds (03/22/2012)
1.01 Changed the combination to Cot+Druid (01/09/2012)
0.91 Added idea section (09/24/2011) - Make sure to give more ideas or evaluate them
0.9 Revamped the idea keeping the elemental theme. Added a few customized spells, changed feats around and simplified smiting system. (21/09/2011)
0.81 Improved flavor text a bit, reduced a bit the smiting damage
0.8 Changed spells to transmutation, decreased smite cd reduction to 60
0.71 Granted Cha bonuses to compensate the G. Smite req
0.7 Basic sketch

Flavor description:
Not only the lawful good deities have martial agents. Avengers are warriors blessed by nature with no mercy against evil.

Role:
The avenger is a smiter/mage hybrid with elemental theme. It feels somewhat similar to an Eldritch Knight, as it can hit in melee and cast damage spells.

Requirements:
Champion of Torm 16 and Druid 10 by level 28
Great Wisdom 2
Great Spell focus Evocation

Benefits:
Upon qualifying they get Greater Smiting 1 and 2.
Avengers can swap Great Wisdom feats for Great Smiting feats if the have at least 20 base wisdom.

Greater Smiting is changed:
-It adds Druid's levels for purposes of AB calculation and acquisition.
-It can do any elemental damage (Electricity, Fire, Cold, Sonic and Cold) instead of the normal types
-Can be used on any non-good foes.
-Uses Wisdom mod to calculate damage instead of Charisma.
Avengers can swap Epic prowess and Great wisdom feats for Greater Smiting.
Upon reaching legendary level, if class control is druid, each great smiting feat adds +1 Wisdom instead of Str.


Spell casting
-Avengers consider both CoT and Druid levels for their spells:
--All Druid's direct damage elemental spells (not soups, dots or traps or exotic/physical damage) count as Evocation and use STR*(9/10) instead of Wisdom to calculate DC.

-----under construction section (changes to spells and CoT abilities)----
Avengers get a special version of some spells:
--Ice Storm, Flame Strike and Fire storm do only elemental damage, but deal 50% more of it)
Summon creature I-VI summon the old animal (badger, boar, dire wolf, spider, dire tiger and dire bear) with enhanced abilities and stats (example: Spider deals Con damage with Poison and tiger deals internal damage with it's sharp claw attacks) - These new abilities are enhanced by Druid levels

Avenger's CoT's abilities are changed:
Divine Wrath is changed:
-Duration is bound to Wisdom

"Nimbus of victory" is changed to "Natural Retribution"
-Grants allies 2/3 of Avenger levels (including legendary) % elemental resistance to the avenger and his allies in the affected area (up to 40% lasting 1 minutes, with 3 minutes cooldown) // stacks with shunt
-Enemies within the aura lose 1 per 3 Avenger levels ( including legendary) % to all elements.
-Have no effect on SR of affected enemies

Justifications:
Playing this Quasi would feel similar to BaneKnight but with an elemental theme and offensive spell with damage instead.
The damage isn't that different from Cot, while the saves are much worse (no synergy with charisma).
It can splash Weapon Master, Harper Scout, Paladin or Monk. So it's somewhat versatile.
The STR mod for elemental spells make pure STR builds more attractive. It also limits the effectiveness of a full Wisdom build (which is also viable as a smiter/intuitive attack battle druid).

Build examples
Cot 30 Druid 10 - a pure Fighter build - has some new tricks and much worse saves than a regular CoT.
Cot 22 Druid 18 - Balanced DC-build
Druid 23 Cot 16 Monk 1 - Can use non-evocation druid's spells and have a powerful smite but lack direct damage spells and Epics (It's very different from a Stormlord). Best If pure Wisdom.- High damage "Smiter" with intuitive attack,
Cot 25 Druid 10 HS 5 - Sacrifices CL for more melee damage.

In work ideas
Skill point wise, this class is a nightmare, making gnome and human the most viable options. Currently the Str version needs 5 skills (Conc Discipline Parry Tumble Listen Lore) (Wisdom version also needs Parry, but druid have more skill points)
Going Druid CC is hard due needing Bullheaded and Blooded and save feats.
Another idea is using concentration as "lore" for damage calculating purposes.
Perhaps bonus DC on evocation spells, could help in the above issue, liberating more feats.

[chirality]

Don't have time now to really comment on the actual numbers but at first glance my thoughts are: Very cool concept...something I have tinkered with countless times in D&D...not the pally/druid combo, that is, but the flavor. Could be hard to pull off. I'd like to see something like this with druid + *something* but I'm not sure if paladin is the class for it.

I will try to give more thoughts on this later though.

[fallenwizard]

Combaring dragon breath and smite doesnt really work that way. To do the 10 breaths dragon cannot perform anything else, while this guy would smite and do other stuff rest 35secs.

Anyways, I do like the concept. Holysword, aura of glory, prayer, divine favor and other "divine" paladin spells should be barred from it, since he is now follower of neutral path.

[desocupado]

Sept 18, 2011 4:03:01 GMT fallenwizard said:

Comparing dragon breath and smite doesn't really work that way. To do the 10 breaths dragon cannot perform anything else, while this guy would smite and do other stuff rest 35secs.

Well, numbers can be changed, but breath does 60d10*(AE-20)/100, thereof the damage is around two breaths (4 if the foe succeeded on save). Since it isn't exotic damage, elemental smiting isn't something absurd.
Perhaps it should read, Greater Smite cooldown is reduced by 80 further seconds, instead of 1/3. Perhaps damage could be lowered a bit (Strmod*3 dice) or the timer increased a bit (60 seconds).

Sept 18, 2011 4:03:01 GMT fallenwizard said:

Anyways, I do like the concept. Holysword, aura of glory, prayer, divine favor and other "divine" paladin spells should be barred from it, since he is now follower of neutral path.

Well, I tried to keep Aura of Glory because it gives some benefit for the CHA score, as I removed divine grace, but flavor-wise, the effect could be moved to a druid spell (basic stone skin comes to mind).

[kite]

I'm not sure why they wouldn't be favoured by a deity, there are plenty of true neutral/neutral good gods, silvanus would make sense (true neutral druid god).
It's a nice idea, but I think overpowered at the moment, elemental smites are better than exotics in a lot of cases probably and it shouldn't work on anything neutral.

[FunkySwerve]

This is probably the most feasible quasi I've seen posted in recent memory. It has a number of potential problems, though. With smiters, there's a definite balance issue - and your suggested time between smites is frankly somewhat absurd. On the flip side, though, there's the problem of preventing them from being one-trick ponies - they would need other things to do during downtime between smites, and there doesn't appear to be much of that either - just passive weapon and resistance buffs. It needs something more.

Funky

[desocupado]

Smite issue:
Well the last change to G. Smiting was to Mod*3 and 1 minute recharge that means 6 times MOD damage per 2 minutes. A regular smiter BG/Paladin gets 4 times plus 1x esoteric per two minutes. So the smiting damage isn't that much more, is it? (this guy paid at least +14 to all saves from Cha for it)

One trick pony issue
This is a problem indeed. IF you think about it Life Threaders and Lash of Hatred look to suffer form this problem as well, no?

My first idea would be to throw some spells.

Improved spell casting
Use Str*9/10 mod for DC with Druid spells that do damage (evocation and conjuration mostly). This way it doesn't shock with the Druid's primary school (Trans).
That means more spell levels will cost permanent Str (from greater smiting, as feat won't be enough).
Half Paladin level as CL for for all Druid spells
Full CL for Evocation/Conjuration spells that do damage
Add Greater Evocation Spell focus as a bonus feat upon qualifying.

Like this he gets a few very good options: Harm, Heal, SoV and some spells. spell slots are limited even more as he needs heavily defense gear to deal with the lack of AC.

[FunkySwerve]

Sept 18, 2011 22:15:59 GMT desocupado said:

This is a problem indeed. IF you think about it Life Threaders and Lash of Hatred look to suffer form this problem as well, no?

Let me respond with an analogy. The fist time you attempt a backflip, you crack your ankle on the swimming board, but still land the backflip. This does NOT mean you should be ok with cracking your ankle the next time you attempt it.

More succinctly, the presence of problems is not justification for repeating them despite the benefit of hindsight. If you want to start a new thread suggesting ideas for threaders and lashes, have at it, but it's not really relevant here. The spellcasting idea is one possible avenue, but needs more fleshing out, and I suspect additional dc/casterlevels aren't enough - some other unique ability is probably needful.

Funky

[desocupado]

Sept 18, 2011 22:57:18 GMT FunkySwerve said:

Sept 18, 2011 22:15:59 GMT desocupado said:

This is a problem indeed. IF you think about it Life Threaders and Lash of Hatred look to suffer form this problem as well, no?

Let me respond with an analogy. The fist time you attempt a backflip, you crack your ankle on the swimming board, but still land the backflip. This does NOT mean you should be ok with cracking your ankle the next time you attempt it.
More succinctly, the presence of problems is not justification for repeating them despite the benefit of hindsight. If you want to start a new thread suggesting ideas for threaders and lashes, have at it, but it's not really relevant here.

I see. These are good quasi as get very unique powers, even if somewhat simple to use. This one feels like just "one more smiter".
Truth is, I was trying to point out that sometimes it's best to not be too complex but I have to agree that this quasi is still lacking.

Sept 18, 2011 22:57:18 GMT FunkySwerve said:

The spellcasting idea is one possible avenue, but needs more fleshing out, and I suspect additional dc/casterlevels aren't enough - some other unique ability is probably needful.

Funky

Well, perhaps some special version of spells would be nice. I'll try to keep the elemental theme and brainstorm a bit:

Energy immunity -> When avenger cast this spell, it becomes a Aura instead affecting nearby allies lasting CL turns instead (this would add a lot of utility even if limited to positioning)
Another more active option would be if it created a Protection Zone (i.e. a stationary ward)

Aura of vitality -> When avenger cast this spell, it grants a CL*10 HP energy buffer effect to all affected allies. (this is 1/3 of a energy buffer)

Offensive spells:
Well currently Druid's elemental damage spells are:
Flame lash (2) - fire - single target
Call lightning (3) - elec - area damage
Vitriolic Ray (4) - acid - line
Flame Strike (4) - fire/slash - medium area
Inferno (5)- fire - line
Ice Storm (5) - cold/blun - huge area
Fire Storm (7) - fire/div - colossal area
Word of Balance (7) - sonic plus extra effects - gargantuan area
Storm of Vengeance (9) - elec - soup with extra effects - colossal area
Elemental Swarm (9) - any elemental - colossal area

That means 4 fire spells, 2 electricity and 1 of the other 3 elementals and, of course, elemental swarm acting as a omni-elemental spell.
One must note that lower level spells tend to do low damage and be loot breaking.

Here some feasible ideas for changes:
Elemental variety: Flame strike or Inferno could do Sonic damage instead of Fire, balancing a bit more damage types.
Unfocused damage: non-elemental damages could become elemental
Spell type variety: Some/Many spells could become 3-5 round lasting mini-clouds. A spell could become a trap-like spell.
Loot breaking issue: Remove it from the "area" spells.

Conclusion
This analysis of spells suggests that a reasonable idea with a consistent theme would be to spells to create medium zone/soups with elemental properties like bonuses to Immunities and damage with low durations.
Still, I think adding the two modified to the spells might be enough for the current state, as it isn't a dedicated caster.

[Deleted]

This really comes off to me much like a battle cleric but with its own unique flavor. Healing circle could be replaced by a choice of different kinds of 'circles' which the player could toggle between, only one kind selectable:

1. Elemental immunity: all within the circle gain wis mod% immunity to standard elements, boosted by lore.

2. Elemental purity: Avengers concentration skill check vs dc opponents ab. A check is made for each character within the circle when an opponent attempts to inflict elemental damage resistance reduction upon them.

3. Elemental infliction: Opponents within Avengers circle must make reflex save vs DC Avengers Concentration or receive 1/10th Avengers Wis mod d12 elemental damage per round; a second check against opponents will save, failure resulting in the infliction of stacking .10% x CL elemental damage immunity per round/save failed.

The size of the circle would be determined by the Avengers cha modifier.

[desocupado]

Sept 19, 2011 3:31:15 GMT @overdriver said:

This really comes off to me much like a battle cleric but with its own unique flavor. Healing circle could be replaced by a choice of different kinds of 'circles' which the player could toggle between, only one kind selectable:

1. Elemental immunity: all within the circle gain wis mod% immunity to standard elements, boosted by lore.

2. Elemental purity: Avengers concentration skill check vs dc opponents ab. A check is made for each character within the circle when an opponent attempts to inflict elemental damage resistance reduction upon them.

3. Elemental infliction: Opponents within Avengers circle must make reflex save vs DC Avengers Concentration or receive 1/10th Avengers Wis mod d12 elemental damage per round; a second check against opponents will save, failure resulting in the infliction of stacking .10% x CL elemental damage immunity per round/save failed.

The size of the circle would be determined by the Avengers cha modifier.

Interesting ideas

Well combining the ideas, the very "divine" paladin spell could be changed into elemental, keeping a consistent theme, as following:

"Avenger get a special version of some spells:"

Divine Favor - Avenger attacks inflict a 10% elemental vulnerability to the current "damXX" elemental.
Aura of Glory - imbues all affect allies with a reduced version of Energy Buffer that absorbs up to CL*10 elemental damage before collapsing
Prayer - Instead of normal effects, allies affected by it can resist elemental vulnerability infliction rolling a Avenger's Concentration x AB Check.
Magic circle against alignment - instead of normal effects, the good version grants allies CL/2 elemental resistance of the chosen "!damxx" command, the evil version inflicts the enemies with the same value as vulnerability on a failed Fortitude Save.
Death Ward - Grants the target absolute 0% resistance to all elementals for CL/3 rounds.
Holy sword - instead of normal effects, it inflicts CL/6 (cap at 10) penalty to SR on a successful hit (like a imbued natural balance spell).


Now i got a few questions, from a developer point of view. Are these changes simple/possible?
Can the quasi being allowed to take Paladin levels without being Lawful Good? (would be handy at least)
Can the quasi be qualified for greater smiting feats on druid levels? (a feat exchange can solve this)
Can the quasi qualify for greater smiting without Cha 25? (a feat exchange can solve this)

A good solution would be removing the Cha requirement for G. Smiting allowing more points on Wisdom.
Also, the character could lose some powers if not true neutral (like Paladin and Druid mutual CL bonuses for example).
Greater Smite damage could use the old formula with Wis mod instead of Str or Cha. Another idea is making it benefit from Great Str feats, as if they were Greater smiting feats.
An interesting idea would be changing Paladin's Cha bonuses at legendary levels for this quasi to Wis.

[FunkySwerve]

Sept 19, 2011 18:13:17 GMT desocupado said:

Now i got a few questions, from a developer point of view. Are these changes simple/possible?
Can the quasi being allowed to take Paladin levels without being Lawful Good? (would be handy at least)

Nope. Feat swaps are easy enough, however.

Funky

[desocupado]

Updated the idea, it feels much more adequate now.

Just posting the old smite idea for reference:
Strength smiting
It's recharge timer is reduced by 60 seconds (up to 60 seconds cooldown with all feats)
Uses STR mod to calculate damage, but it is multiplied by 3 instead.

Two ideas are interesting as of now:
Conversion of spells into damage aura
Critical immunity on stone skin.
-some abilities could be discarded for them to work.

[desocupado]

I've changed the idea around a lot, by changing Paladin to CoT.

here's the old version 0.91

Flavor description:
While it's rare for a Paladin to fall, most people tend to associate that idea with embracing evil, however there's another possibility.
A Paladin can also fall into "neutrality", after fighting the eternal Good versus Evil battle, one can realize that no side can win this war. And that trying to unbalance these forces is futile, as Light cannot exist without Darkness.
These are the Avengers, renegade Paladins that seek to bring balance to the world employing unaligned forces, the elementals.

Role:
A Paladin that swaps holy abilities to an elemental theme. It feels somewhat similar to an Eldritch Knight, as it can hit in melee and cast damage spells.

Requirements:
Paladin 16 and Druid 10 by level 28
Great Wisdom 2
Spell focus Evocation

Benefits:
Upon qualifying they get several feats:
-Greater/Epic Spell Focus Evocation
-Greater Smiting 1, 2 and 3.
Greater Smiting is changed:
-It adds Druid's levels for purposes of AB calculation and acquisition.
-It can do any elemental damage (Electricity, Fire, Cold, Sonic and Cold) instead of the normal types
-Can be used on foes of any alignment, but does less 25% damage for each Neutral component on the alignment.
-Uses Wisdom mod to calculate damage instead of Charisma.
Avengers can swap Epic prowess and Great wisdom feats for Greater Smiting.
Upon reaching legendary level, if class control is druid, each great smiting feat adds +1 wisdom instead of Str.

Spells
Avengers consider both Paladin and Druid level for their spells:
-Stoneskin (both versions) have full effect regardless of the type of armor the Avenger is wearing.
-Druid's Evocation's spells use STR*(9/10) instead of Wisdom to calculate DC.


Avenger get a special version of some spells:(need some help balancing this, and if deemed necessary, some of these spells can just get no effect)

Divine Favor - has no effect when cast by an Avenger
Bless Weapon - has no effect when cast by an Avenger
Aura of Glory - imbues all affect allies with a reduced version of Energy Buffer that absorbs up to CL*10 elemental damage before collapsing
Prayer - Instead of normal effects, allies affected by it can resist elemental vulnerability infliction rolling a Avenger's Lore x AB Check.
Magic circle against alignment - instead of normal effects, the good version grants allies CL% elemental resistance of the chosen "!damxx" command, the evil version inflicts the enemies with CL/2 vulnerability on a failed Fortitude Save. Counts as Evocation.
Death Ward - doesn't grant critical immunity.
Holy sword - instead of normal effects, it inflicts CL/6 (cap at 10) penalty to SR on a successful hit (like an imbued natural balance/mord spell).
Elemental Swarm - It is considered an evocation spell for avengers.

Elemental Avenger loses some abilities:
Any save bonuses from charisma (both Divine Grace and Dark Blessing) are removed.
Any benefit from Divine Might or Shield is lost.
Death ward doesn't grant critical immunity.
Avengers can't use epic spells.


Justifications:
Playing this Quasi would feel somewhere between a BaneKnight and a Paladin, changing utility for bursts of elemental damage.
As it lack tenser, the dps of the quasi is slight near that of a xDD, however having 3 elemental buff compensate that at lower levels.
It can splash Weapon Master, Harper Scout, Champion of Torm or Monk, it's somewhat versatile.
The STR mod for evocation spells makes STR builds more attractive and limits a bit full Wis build as a dedicated spell casters.

Building examples
Pal 29 Druid 11 - the "combat" build gets all combat spells, and enough epic feats for G. Smite 10 and other 3 by level 40, pretty much a regular smiter without divine grace, and doesn't need to go full STR.
Pal 23 Druid 17 - the "pure" build - Can use all the quasi benefits. Best if Pure STR.
Druid 23 Pal 16 Monk 1 - Can use non-evocation druid's spells and have a powerful smite but lack direct damage spells and Epics (It's very different from a Stormlord). Best If pure Wisdom.
Pal 23 Druid 12 HS 5 - Sacrifices CL and 2 feats for more melee damage.
Pal 22 Druid 11 WM 7 - Sacrifices CL and 3 feats for more melee damage
Pal 16 Druid 13 CoT 10 - Sacrifices CL for lots of feats

In work ideas
An elemental kickback spell could fit the class, like a toggle-able elemental shield.
Improved combat casting would a fun small advantage, as it fits the melee/part-caster combat style.
Skill point wise, this class is a nightmare, making gnome and human the only viable options. Currently the Str version needs 5 skills and high wisdom, making hard to fit int and constitution.
Perhaps 1 or 2 bonus DC on evocation spells, could help in the above issue, liberating more feats for LSA.
Perhaps it could have some short-lived stronger stoneskins, to incentive casting a bit more often now and them. Heck, it could grant them critical immunity while on, making it more tricky to use than death ward.
Damage auras - the quasi could convert some druid's damage spells into auras that last CL/12 rounds with battletide radius and save reflex for half: (of course only one could be used at a time)
-Call lightning (3) - becomes Lightning storm aura - d4 damage
-Vitriolic Ray (4) - becomes Corroding Gas aura - d4 damage
-Inferno (5)- becomes Immolation Aura - d6 damage
-Ice Storm (5) - becomes Shivering Aura - d6 damage
-Word of Balance (7) - becomes Resonating Aura - d6 damage

[desocupado]

Added Druid CC bonus. (inspired by some summoner and druid based summoner suggestions)

The Avenger's summon spells gets enhanced effects based on Druid levels (not counting LL).

Summon Creature I - Badger - have Terrifying Rage // DC = Avenger Levels/2 (including LL) + Druid levels no LL levels included) cap Will 54
Summon Creature II - Boar (very good defensive stats and elemental resistance) - Resistance to all elements is increased by Druid levels*5 (no LL)
Summon Creature III - Dire wolf (Causes internal damage with it's sharp claws) - Deals Druid level/6 (no LL) internal damage per hit
Summon Creature IV - Dire Spider (Powerful poison attack drains Constitution and good concealment) - Drains Avenger/10 Con with same DC as badger's terrify rage (Cap at 54)
Summon Creature V - Dire Tiger (balanced and strong)
Summon Creature VI - Dire Bear (very high physical damage and immunity, but few attacks per round)
Summon Creature VII-IX - Summon elementals as normal


Alternatively, someone with more Lore knowledge in AD&D could suggest some interesting critters (I heard something about a Celestial Badger, or maybe some animal form good planes like Elysium)

--------------------

Another cool idea would be if Elemental Swarm summoned 4 elementals at once, like Bard's illusionary army does (maybe exclusivelly for a build with Cot 16 Druid 24)

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Anyone got any idea, suggestion or feedback for the current incarnation? (Cot+Druid seemed a good way to put underused classes for quasi classes together)