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Post by uncanny on Oct 21, 2011 22:06:29 GMT
Ok, perhaps this is an old question.. but wondering why most shifter builds just take the one ranger level? I mean, if you take it as 5druid/7ranger/28shifter, wouldn't this end up with better ab for the tank shapes?
(I ask since ranger=druid=shifter for level of abilities on shifter.. or so I understand, please correct if wrong)
It could be:
5druid=3
7ranger=7
8shifter=6
total of 16 for pre-epic vs
10druid=6
10shifer=6
total of 12
If you were reincarnating a lvl35 shifter, would this make more sense? Is there something that would be lost doing this, or is it unimportant?
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Post by bobownsya on Oct 21, 2011 22:50:06 GMT
Ranger levels do not give Caster Levels. On Ability Mage-type builds, one Ranger is taken for the Discipline dump. Shifters who focus on the Humanoid forms generally go 22 Ranger/5 Druid/13 Shifter, just enough to take Humanoid Form.
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Post by rainwalker on Oct 22, 2011 2:38:14 GMT
bobownsya - That not exactly true. I have a tank shifter with the lvl spread he listed above. @uncanny Some forms require CL - Druid + Shifter to be effective. Ex. Beholder ray, Golem breath Some forms require shifter lvl. Mainly conceal bonuses per form, but there are a couple forms that use shifter lvl's only. All forms use PL - Ranger + Druid + Shifter. This mainly effects bonuses to Shield AC, Str, Dex stats. Shifter is one of my favorite builds on this server due to the fact your build/form focus give you many options to play with, they're easier to gear up, and can be effective in any area of the server. You can build tank shifter with any combo you want of those 3 classes and probably still be an effective utiltiy tank. I chose 5 druid / 7 ranger / 28 shifter so I could still be an effective Wildshape shifter if i needed to pull back and perform a different duty. I'm also working on a Stormlord Shifter tank using Humanoid/Undead. Shifter is one of the best classes I've played here that you can truly be creative on your builds and still be effective in your role. Only low point on a shifter is they don't really shine until 3rd form focus and lvl 60 plus you do need a pretty quick system if your changing forms alot during battle. And finally to answer your question on why ranger lvl. As stated above it usually for a skill dump into discipline, but how you configure your different class lvls really depends on what type of shifter your building. If you don't know you can get a max of 3 forms maxed out in their 3rd form focus. Ex. 3rd form focus in Wildshape/undead/construct . So what type of shifter you planning on making? Ability, Damage, Tank.
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Post by uncanny on Oct 22, 2011 12:38:15 GMT
bobownsya - That not exactly true. I have a tank shifter with the lvl spread he listed above. @uncanny Some forms require CL - Druid + Shifter to be effective. Ex. Beholder ray, Golem breath Some forms require shifter lvl. Mainly conceal bonuses per form, but there are a couple forms that use shifter lvl's only. All forms use PL - Ranger + Druid + Shifter. This mainly effects bonuses to Shield AC, Str, Dex stats. Shifter is one of my favorite builds on this server due to the fact your build/form focus give you many options to play with, they're easier to gear up, and can be effective in any area of the server. You can build tank shifter with any combo you want of those 3 classes and probably still be an effective utiltiy tank. I chose 5 druid / 7 ranger / 28 shifter so I could still be an effective Wildshape shifter if i needed to pull back and perform a different duty. I'm also working on a Stormlord Shifter tank using Humanoid/Undead. Shifter is one of the best classes I've played here that you can truly be creative on your builds and still be effective in your role. Only low point on a shifter is they don't really shine until 3rd form focus and lvl 60 plus you do need a pretty quick system if your changing forms alot during battle. And finally to answer your question on why ranger lvl. As stated above it usually for a skill dump into discipline, but how you configure your different class lvls really depends on what type of shifter your building. If you don't know you can get a max of 3 forms maxed out in their 3rd form focus. Ex. 3rd form focus in Wildshape/undead/construct . So what type of shifter you planning on making? Ability, Damage, Tank. Thanks for the extra detail - indeed, I know about the three forms with the extra book; and I had a humanoid book I was burning to use. I had an old non-immo "pre-upgraded forms" shifter that I was going to make into a tank or damage shifter (probably tank). Only catch is that I'm stuck on non-high-wis races, so probably will use Zeny again. If you had any suggestions, or thoughts to direct me on a path that'll be playable with average kit I'd welcome the advice  (I was thinking tank with humanoid and dragon) |
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Post by redbeard on Oct 22, 2011 16:08:36 GMT
If you're going humanoid tank I'd seriously consider 4 ranger Pre-LL for +2 BAB and an extra attack over the ability mage build. That should also get you a favored enemy.
If you're planning to emphasize humanoid, Zeny might be better than Anarch; but would have a bit less melee damage when in dragon shape.
This discussion made me think about a shifter tank build. I think I'm going to go Zeny:
Druid 5 (Shifter Pre-req)
Shifter 8 (humanoid and Infinite wildshape 2 at 7, this is mostly a shifter build)
Ranger 7 (+2 AB, fourth attack, 2 favored enemies)
Shifter 17
Ranger 3 (Parry, Disc dump, third favored enemy or Epic Prowess)
I'm not sure about the other form to focus on yet.
Compared to Ability Mage
This turns out to have +1 fort, -2 will, -1 reflex
No druid 4-5 spells
Ranger second level spells.
The druid spells don't have much value, but they can be better than nothing.
Dragon breath a little less damaging, but I think you'll get the same number of breaths.
This also gives a bit of wisdom AC when not shifted, which is good because you're probably flat footed.
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Post by uncanny on Oct 23, 2011 11:21:07 GMT
redbeard/rainwalker: Any thoughts about how your builds will progress? I was thinking of just making it follow standard shifter excepting with a few adjustments to the feats (taking prowess, focii for unarmed, etc instead of the usual extra shapes). Thinking that I'll need dragonshape as my third lff? Or would undead make more sense, since this has risen lord?
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Post by redbeard on Oct 23, 2011 22:02:17 GMT
Risen Lord does have the death attack. The DC matches the Drow Mortal Strike. The difference is that death magic immunity protects from Risen Lord and Crit immunity protects from Drow.
I prefer Undead to Dragon shape. Dragons are one hit wonders. (All right, it's a BIG hit.) Undead allows bestow curse, positive damage from baelnorn FOD, GS from vampire and several other items. There is a build that takes dragon shape with no focuses to get one more damage type, but you can get a weaker version of that damage type from wyrmling shape. The lack of creature weapon focuses would also make the dragon not that good a mele.
When I finally get around to building this, I might take construct or outsider. My current ability mage has dragon and undead and I think I'd like to try something a little different next time.
My changes to ability mage are mostly above. Using Zeny, I pick up an extra pre-epic feat that I'm going to look at power or superior crit unarmed. I've got to admit that this comment depends on how closely I followed the ability mage build when I planned out my current shifter. The big feat I miss from Anarch is Armor Skin, and the only way I see to add it pre-paragon is to drop epic prowess as a ranger bonus feat. I may also pull the first ranger level earlier to get martial weapon proficiency. I'll also be dropping Lightning Reflexes to pick up Alertness.
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Post by uncanny on Oct 23, 2011 22:29:21 GMT
Hmm that might be interesting.. what sucks is that it's a pre-immo that I'm reshuffling, so it will have some pains I think getting to melee. Any thoughts on what to emphasise to reduce that pain, or will the pain be relatively low once I hit Legendary levels (only immo fight and a few levels short to get there) I've only done an abilitymage all the way through and that was.. not stellar but workable.
Another thing I thought of that might be a stumble block.. what about prowess and Legendary focus? Should something be dropped for these two - maybe lff2 on the other form and drop a great wis for prow, and use the other feat for something else, maybe saves?
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Post by redbeard on Oct 24, 2011 0:45:30 GMT
I think you'll have to slug your way through the Immo fight as a less than great tank. Adding curse song will help. Try to have someone else get his aggro and you can get sneaks as Kobold Commando. Or is he sneak immune? Use whatever helped with the ability mage.
I haven't done a good comparison, but shifter DCs seem to be a bit less than dedicated builds. My Banshee doesn't seem to kill as many as an arcane. Then again, it's a spell, so maybe it comes under the DC = Druid level + shifter level while the arcane has caster level + focuses. You would be looking at 6 less than max DC on the Risen Lord's death attack or the Vampire domination gaze if you didn't take LFF2.
My ability mage took Epic Prowess on the level 40 Ranger level as the first level ranger bonus feat.
Remember that you want an even number of Wisdom points. If you drop one wisdom, you might as well drop 2.
I'm hesitant to recommend only taking LFF1. Shifters that have 3 LFF3s don't get legendary weapon focus. Then again, I doubt they're primarily tanks. I'd start thinking about aiming more directly at humanoid tank and skip the second shape. That will give you one more epic feat and 3 legendary feats that can be directed to more melee ability.
It would be nice to have someone with a bit more experience with shifters to contribute to the discussion.
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Post by chirality on Oct 24, 2011 1:15:36 GMT
I have no experience with playing shifters whatsoever, but have a couple things to add (of little value ;D) based on redbeard's earlier post:
a) Like he says, Undead is great, and while Dragon can be an amazing tank, Undead offers a ton of versatility and utility. Baelnorn is pretty sick with Sunburst and pos FoD. Banshee is also really nice with all 3 of their abilities.
b) Vampire GS rocks but don't forget that it requires LFF to use, so don't count on it in a bad situation before you have LFF and get a rude shock.
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Post by uncanny on Oct 24, 2011 12:19:30 GMT
I think you'll have to slug your way through the Immo fight as a less than great tank. Adding curse song will help. Try to have someone else get his aggro and you can get sneaks as Kobold Commando. Or is he sneak immune? Use whatever helped with the ability mage. I haven't done a good comparison, but shifter DCs seem to be a bit less than dedicated builds. My Banshee doesn't seem to kill as many as an arcane. Then again, it's a spell, so maybe it comes under the DC = Druid level + shifter level while the arcane has caster level + focuses. You would be looking at 6 less than max DC on the Risen Lord's death attack or the Vampire domination gaze if you didn't take LFF2. My ability mage took Epic Prowess on the level 40 Ranger level as the first level ranger bonus feat. Remember that you want an even number of Wisdom points. If you drop one wisdom, you might as well drop 2. I'm hesitant to recommend only taking LFF1. Shifters that have 3 LFF3s don't get legendary weapon focus. Then again, I doubt they're primarily tanks. I'd start thinking about aiming more directly at humanoid tank and skip the second shape. That will give you one more epic feat and 3 legendary feats that can be directed to more melee ability. Hmm ok so in this case you'd still have wildshape (humanoid through book). Should have clarified, what I was thinking about was something like the following legendary feats: LSA: Tumble LWF: Unarmed LFF1-3 (Wildshape) LFF1+2 Undead (LFFU1 for GS ability according to online docs) For a total of 7 feats. If LFF1 and LFF2 on undead are not that much lost, then perhaps dropping a GWis at epic levels to take Prowess, then take GWis instead of LFF2 (but this needs more clarification than I think we have documentation for online). Using Epode for humanoid shape, which means it will kick in at the same time as Wildshape LFF3 (assuming tags in place). Absolutely . Also.. some idea of what is gained when going to LFF2 and LFF3 for undead would be handy as this might be where I have to purchase feats from. |
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Post by redbeard on Oct 24, 2011 17:08:05 GMT
The big thing going from LFFU1 to LFFU2 to LFFU3 is the better DC (3 each )and stronger effect in Empower Ally, Fear Aura and Shadow Touch.
I mis-understood what you were thinking of with LFFU2. Dropping LFFU3 for LWF Unarmed sounds like a reasonable trade off.
Try building this in the test chamber. I think you'll find that taking a ranger level after 20 will allow you to chose Epic Prowess instead of a Favorite Enemy (Ranger levels 1, 5, 10). I think the +1 attack from Epic Prowess will be more valuable than +2 listen and +2 damage to a limited number of enemies. (The Taunt and Spot bonuses are neglegable.)
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Post by redbeard on Oct 24, 2011 22:28:13 GMT
I'm trying to build this in the test chamber, and found why we were talking past each other on Epic Prowess. I took Epic Prowess on my ability mage instead of Epic Skill Focus Parry.
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Post by uncanny on Oct 25, 2011 7:50:50 GMT
The big thing going from LFFU1 to LFFU2 to LFFU3 is the better DC (3 each )and stronger effect in Empower Ally, Fear Aura and Shadow Touch. I mis-understood what you were thinking of with LFFU2. Dropping LFFU3 for LWF Unarmed sounds like a reasonable trade off. Try building this in the test chamber. I think you'll find that taking a ranger level after 20 will allow you to chose Epic Prowess instead of a Favorite Enemy (Ranger levels 1, 5, 10). I think the +1 attack from Epic Prowess will be more valuable than +2 listen and +2 damage to a limited number of enemies. (The Taunt and Spot bonuses are neglegable.) Hmmm yeah that's a decent option. It was a bit annoying having additional feats pre-epic that were useless to me but no extra feats in epic levels. That said.. I did manage to get 10 GWis plus undead plus EWF plus AC Skin into the build (I think it worked out that way in any case). If this was accurate, perhaps dropping AC Skin for prowess would make sense since AC ends up in the mid 120's to 130's (my abilitymage has something like 124ac for Mino shape at ~lvl50). AC is gold, but I'm thinking how annoying it will be to die because I couldn't keep hitting something before it killed me. Though I might be disagreeing with conventional wisdom by thinking that . Will 27 shifter levels still be effective for abilities as a backup though? I thought 28 was already stretching for ability fallback? |
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Post by redbeard on Oct 25, 2011 21:20:32 GMT
I think the undead and humanoid will have the same conceal from shifter levels 25 through 29.
Some of the damages will have fewer hit die.
Most of the wildshape forms use wisdom and foci for DC, not levels. And DC should be more important than one or two extra die.
The harpy curse will be a bit weaker, but still quite useful. We'd have to analyze the bardsong table to figure out how much. No more than 1 AB, 1 AC a couple points of saves and a couple points of skills.
I play an undead/dragon ability mage, but don't really know which abilities described "as the spell" are treated as spells. Your caster level would be 5 druid + 47 shifter (at 60) for a total caster level of 52. I'm not real good on what caster level does on a mage, so I don't know how much problem 52 instead of an ability mage's 59 would be. I think there's some spell pen or DC difference.
Pending better input on caster level, 27 pre-ll shifter levels sounds pretty effective.
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(I was thinking tank with humanoid and dragon)