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Post by Shroomery_ on Dec 12, 2011 22:39:37 GMT
Couldn't you use Half-Dragon Green instead? I know half-dragons must choose their color according to their color of race, but turning to a dsm also FORCES you to turn blue. This might or might not work Will test this out actually and let you know!
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Post by Enius the White on Dec 13, 2011 0:03:49 GMT
Niilo,I think we only get those bonus feats in epic levels (i.e. we got a Sorc and DD mix). Thank you very much for the table! I've added it to the build post, showing the Half-Dragon - Blue version. It really cleans up the presentation.
Nice call Shroomery! I just tried your idea in the test chamber, and it worked! For some reason I had assumed that the XDD/same color half-dragon limitation applied to DSMs, but it does not! I've changed the base build to "go Green". For the Green build "!list imm" shows "Acid 65%" and Electric as "-30% (70% absolute)" at lvl20. Then it progresses as follows:
level 21 Acid "65%" Electric "-20% (80% absolute)" level 22 Acid "65%" Electric "-10% (90% absolute)" level 23 Acid "65%" Electric "0% (100% absolute)"
A huge improvement over Blue on the immunities front. The Half-Dragon - Blue version now has a very nice Green variation. Thank you!
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Post by Shroomery_ on Dec 13, 2011 4:03:36 GMT
Your very welcome!
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Post by Shroomery_ on Dec 13, 2011 17:39:49 GMT
Oh, you will want to redo the stats and what not, green is a little different than blue.
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Post by Enius the White on Dec 13, 2011 19:57:41 GMT
Yes, thanks Shroomery, I've been tweaking the build to accommodate the -1 Cha at the start (from Green vs Blue). The Epic and LL feats are pretty much set in stone, so I can't see a way to avoid loosing Leg. Spell Pen. in order to take Greater Cha 4. This would, unfortunately push Leg. Spell Pen out of this build range, and into paragon levels (when they come in). The loss of 2 SP is not the end of the world thanks to the free channeling and +4 class bonus. The extra Int from Green also gives extra skill points that can go to max Persuade to buffer this SP loss. Green also looses 1 Will save.
The subtle stat differences between Blue and Green are enough to create 2 somewhat distinct variations. Green for defense (-2 SP, 100% elect, 65% acid, -1 Will, and more skills), Blue for offense(+2 SP, 100% elect, -100% acid, +1 Will, and less skills).
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Post by vorshlumpf on Jan 3, 2012 5:13:36 GMT
I just achieved Dragonstorm Mage status at level 20 - yay!
Do I have to wait for a server reset before I get access to the epic spells? Or do I need to be an epic character (level 21+) to get those? It was the latter. Once I hit level 21, I was able to use those spells.
Also, I've noticed the high number of summon spells in your spell list. Do you really use all of them? With limited spell selection, it surprises me, especially with Dragon Knight available.
- Niilo
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Post by Enius the White on Jan 3, 2012 18:00:05 GMT
Hey Niilo First grats on getting another HC toon that far! I don't recall anything unusual about getting the epics when I leveled mine. They'll probably come at level 21 like normal Bioware epics chosen as epic feats. I see that the description at: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=info&action=display&thread=6677&page=1#1178496218states "On achieving Dragonstorm Mage status at level 20 or 21, the character is automatically given Epic Spell (Hellball) and Epic Spell (Dragon Knight) as bonus feats.", so I understand the reason for your question. You access the Bioware epics (both Dragon Knight and Hellball) from the radial menu. You will probably want to quick slot them as well. A good trick to remember, where feasible, is to target yourself with the Hellball spell, instead of your opponents. The AoE will, of course, center around you, but the slow gyre animation is replaced by just the almost instantaneous impact, saving time. Yes, there are definitely summon spells to spare. I was sincere when I wrote that "someone (or something) will always have our back!" You do not need them all. It is nice to be able to use whatever spell level you have slots available/left in for any specific area or gear setup. Empowered and Maximized Summons increase in power as well, complicating the selection process further. Sometimes recasting a few times will help to get you the desired summons, so having a few extra can be good. I shift/quick slotted "!opt summonele" to make selection (mainly for survival ability) faster. Ultimately, however, selection boiled down to which spells get the full (Sorcerer level + Blue Dragon Disciple level) caster level (and school focus) as Dragonstorm Mage spells. There are not many, and the summons are among them. With the 61 (63 with full channeling) caster levels and +4 for Leg. Evocation, even Summon Creature 5 can get you a top tier summon. 2 and 3 can be surprisingly adequate as well. This can free up higher slots for your damage spells. Any spells that are not on the list of Dragonstorm Mage spells will be cast at caster-level 20 (with the free channeling), making their power and duration very limited. Any of these spells can be cast from scrolls with somewhat similar effect. That was my reasoning, but there are definitely other good choices such as: -Bigby's Interposing Hand (-10 penalty to all attack rolls, great on bosses) The other Bigby's rely on caster level to land, even though they are Evocation. -Remove Curse -Clarity And for buffing your summons, the following can have some effect (at the reduced CL). Examine your summons to determine the weapon type before choosing weapon buffs: -Bull's strength -Cat's grace -Keen edge -Flame Weapon Items with buff augs added (e.g. aura of vitality) are great for buffing your summons, and will likely be better than the versions that we could cast. A buffed summon is a happy (and living summon. So, don't hesitate to choose the spells that you like. You can always try them out at lower levels, then change them before you are locked in. The new, powerful summons do not kick in until level 40+.
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Post by maljin on Jan 3, 2012 18:26:11 GMT
Niilo,I think we only get those bonus feats in epic levels (i.e. we got a Sorc and DD mix). Thank you very much for the table! I've added it to the build post, showing the Half-Dragon - Blue version. It really cleans up the presentation. Nice call Shroomery! I just tried your idea in the test chamber, and it worked! For some reason I had assumed that the XDD/same color half-dragon limitation applied to DSMs, but it does not! I've changed the base build to "go Green". For the Green build "!list imm" shows "Acid 65%" and Electric as "-30% (70% absolute)" at lvl20. Then it progresses as follows: level 21 Acid "65%" Electric "-20% (80% absolute)" level 22 Acid "65%" Electric "-10% (90% absolute)" level 23 Acid "65%" Electric "0% (100% absolute)" A huge improvement over Blue on the immunities front. The Half-Dragon - Blue version now has a very nice Green variation. Thank you! It worked the same way for white half-dragon bfms, where you'd overwrite the fire vulnerability. There has been an update long time ago which removed the cold immunity from them though, to offset the loss of the immunity (so you'd get 100% absolute fire imm, no vulnerability but no extra imm to cold either). I suppose this is going to happen to green half-dragon dsms as well. You will however still enjoy being a half-dragon in terms of epic toughness feats you need to pick up for the draconic abilities. I'd still go with green half-dragon, since it has better stats (-2 wis is less noticeable than -2 int) and you don't need to find a certain drink to get rid of the vulnerability.
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Post by vorshlumpf on Jan 3, 2012 22:24:34 GMT
Thanks for the explanation, Enius! I wasn't aware that Summon spells used the full DSM caster level - they aren't included in the list on the Wiki. [Edit: I've updated the wiki page so that the spell list reflects what is on this forum.]
I've definitely switched up the spells while levelling up, settling on your recommendations at level 20. This was one of my most (if not the most) challenging toons to get through the pre-epic stages. I needed to pull as many HC tricks as possible to solo tags I normally find easy.
Still having lots of fun with it, though.
- Niilo
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Post by Enius the White on Jan 4, 2012 1:28:55 GMT
Maljin, you are right. The single epic toughness feat that we "get" (save) by using half-dragon really cements the build, as the epic and LL feats are pretty much set in stone. The resulting XDD Stat, SP, Aura, HP, etc. bonuses really do the heavy lifting in this build. The 2 element immunity is very nice, but not critical with today's randomized gear selection. I'm not sure that this build (the only build that benefits from it) is so overpowered that, as you (and Yojimbo) suggest, it will likely be changed at some point in the future, but it clearly utilizes a convergence of benefits unique to this open sub/class combination. Niilo, as you noticed, DSMs are tough to solo at low levels. The 10/10 split class requirement makes then de facto Sorc based Charisma tanks at first . You've made it over the toughest part, and as HC to boot. Nice! Now that you have the epics, more tactical options will become available. Finally getting the higher level Sorc spells will also make a huge difference, just as the DD benefits start to kick in. You can take solace in the fact that you will have very noticeable milestones to look forward to during that 8 million xp grind from 50-60. Your ability to mass LL areas will mature and pay big dividends then.
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Post by Enius the White on Feb 19, 2012 19:10:12 GMT
Updated to incorporate Wing Buffet DC changes.
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Post by tyranlthixis on Feb 21, 2012 4:14:55 GMT
It took me a while to get my head around what you did here. A lot of people use the Dragon disciple side of this quazi as a tank that happens to cast...mostly ball lightning. You use the disciple to make a "pure caster" and it is that. You trade off epics for "stability"/toughness....at least that's how I see it. The Half Dragon Green "trick" was something you used to be able to do with any dragon disciple.
I think your build needs color and maybe make the spell list bigger or something to make it more visible.
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Post by Enius the White on Feb 21, 2012 6:06:18 GMT
Thanks for the feedback Tyranlthixis! You got the basic idea tyranlthixis. With the UUU changes, my end-game casters spend more time on their backs than ever before. Probably 80% of my caster deaths now come from KD. 40+ strength and the high Dex really, really helps, and would make my "standard" end-game casters drool . Also, having the St/Dex to keep the aura on PFs, Advespas etc. is very nice for all the casters in the party. The interesting thing is how little the ~1600 hps, 42 Str, 36 Con, Dex, Int, etc. actually costs the build. As you point out, the total cost does relate to epics, but I'm not sure how much of a cost it is. You see, the Hellball epic spell gets uses based on XDD levels. Thus, this build gets 5 epics, all hellball . This is as many, or more, epics than BUR subby BFM, DSM builds. It's easy to miss this at a glance, because we did not pay 5 or 15 feats for these 5 epic uses. Due to the class spell limitations/modifications, the only very useful school for a DSM is Evo, and the respective epic that we could have gotten was all but useless at the time this build was posted. It is still weak, and despite it's 2 casts, arguably weaker than even 1 of the additional casting of Hellball. So to summarize, by going Dragon Disciple control, we spend 9 feats on epic toughness. We get hp for this; not a caster way to spend feats. In return, however, we get: - Hd d12s instead of d4s, - Wing Buffet, - Immunity to Sneak Attacks, - +4 draconic AC, - 3 feats worth of hellballs, - 6 feats worth of Constitution, - 2 feats worth of Charisma, - 14 feats worth of Strength, - 4 feats worth of Intelligence, - 4 (sort of) feats worth of Aura DC. - enough saves from stats to avoid Paly splash and stay pure Of these, I would say that the 2 feats worth of Charisma, 4 (sort of) feats worth of Aura DC, and 3 feats worth of hellballs could be argued to fit into a "standard" DSM caster build. So, in effect, we used 9 feats to gain ~ 9 caster feats, with the other 33 (including the 9 epic toughness) "stability" feats etc. for free . Some of the free Int bonus may have been "needed" (i.e starting stats) for skills as well. In other words, we use a host of non subby specific bonuses to overwhelm the "missing" benefits that would otherwise be derived from a higher tier subby. Colored the body and biggered the list, as per your suggestion.
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Post by anthrak on Apr 26, 2012 8:03:12 GMT
I lost 4 strength when leveling to level 15 GDD. Is that supposed to happen?
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Post by Enius the White on Apr 26, 2012 20:22:50 GMT
Anthrak, what is your resulting base strength at level 15 GDD (level 25), and starting strength please?
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