|
Post by bhao on Jul 2, 2007 17:38:51 GMT
i know they have higher ac but str tanks can score 130 ac + easily define "easily" please?
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Jul 2, 2007 17:49:57 GMT
With the gear velki has Yes he's not talking about stuff mere mortals (or in fact immortals) can obtain.
|
|
|
Post by velikibaatezu on Jul 2, 2007 17:58:15 GMT
I plan not to post build details on forum, if that would be the case i'd do so in onother thread, i have quite a few str tanks and all in 130+ range( i am counting + 4 epic from cleric tho). An example, my old retired half dragon paly(that char is like 2 years old) got 119 ac with average gear, now if we add +1 deflection ac from burs and +4 from cleric thats 124, +4 more from strongheart is 128, and thats very outdated pally build.And about burs, well if you are doing hells then you have some to boost ac for sure. Atm my improved paladin got 136 ac , there are quite a few classes that will boost your ac ,like pm,dd,rdd so go figure. Although recent update that nerfed combo rdd dd ac wise did kinda mess up ac for some builds, still there are options to have really high ac as str tank and by far better immunites then dex tank,like dd for example which will have +20% more di from armor and 20% or more from strenght boost, and will definetly handle crits better then a dex tank.And look at example of lala's dragon build too, its str tank and got over 140 ac
|
|
|
Post by Trazik on Jul 2, 2007 19:12:44 GMT
Well, for us normal folk, a Dusty's Pal RDD (Bd2-Pal8-RDD50) with 30 tumble ranks 14 base Dex in Full Plate and a fine set of UR gear can get 123 AC unbuffed with Pentavite Shield. This talk of higher (unbuffed -- let's be sure we are comparing apples to apples) numbers is nice, but does not apply to very many people at all.
If I may be so bold, I think the above paragraph defines "easily" a bit better than inclusion of BUR gear, bardsong, and other buffs which may or may not be available in party.
Trazik
|
|
|
Post by nicnik on Jul 2, 2007 19:28:55 GMT
I think it's safe to say str tanks > dex tanks in every way possible. Even the dom can be avoided.
|
|
|
Post by stonewarrior on Jul 2, 2007 19:39:50 GMT
I think I know the answer (which is no) but want to make sure as it will affect which non Hell eligible Immo I focus on. Will characters with Assassin as control class with 40 base strength be receiving a critical immunity? As I mentioned I am fairly certain the answer is no...but wanted to check.
Peace, John.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 2, 2007 20:07:04 GMT
No. The only foreseeable changes other than fighters getting a crit immune ability will be some tweaking to the DD ability, which was originally going to immobilize them. Funky
|
|
|
Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Jul 2, 2007 20:12:59 GMT
I think it's safe to say str tanks > dex tanks in every way possible. Even the dom can be avoided. I can't say I agree. Dex tanks have better AC, and also can feasibly dual weild. And there are times when Nazugons KD has definately killed my Str-tank self dead. And Erinyes domination is a reeeeal pain, especially in Malbolg. However, I do favor str tanks over dex for one thing - fighting pit fiends. And fighting in areas where there are a lot of pit fiends running about. Though bard KD epic is wonderful for dexers, who I feel benefit the most from it.
|
|
|
Post by velikibaatezu on Jul 2, 2007 20:18:04 GMT
Well, for us normal folk, a Dusty's Pal RDD (Bd2-Pal8-RDD50) with 30 tumble ranks 14 base Dex in Full Plate and a fine set of UR gear can get 123 AC unbuffed with Pentavite Shield. This talk of higher (unbuffed -- let's be sure we are comparing apples to apples) numbers is nice, but does not apply to very many people at all. If I may be so bold, I think the above paragraph defines "easily" a bit better than inclusion of BUR gear, bardsong, and other buffs which may or may not be available in party. Trazik Okay, i gave example of 132ac unbuffed paladin( 136 with +4 from cleric's epic), at lvl 55, which means WITHOUT bur gear, when it hits lvl 60 it will be higher with burs, but point is even with nowdays easy to obtain ur gear you can score high ac, after all burs make 1 or 2 ac diference most(speaking of str tank). And this all went in wrong direction, i'm poiting out str tanks wont notice those crits at all as most of tank builds are CC one of those with new ability; immunity to critical hits.And that recharge timer would ( imho ) make things a bit more balanced, serious before hardcore ppl were wiping only at nessus,rarely it happened that party wiped somewhere else. And if all are immune to crits we just go back to situation as before, weave,cleric's aura, death ward, there's certanly enough casts of those in 15 rests to be immune to crits entire run, only thing new will be tanks acctualy resting. And would like to hear what other ppl think about dex tanks(for same classes that got crit immuity now but counting dex or str as requirment, rather then just str) being immune aswell, with recharge timer ( there are still knockdown and dom form gegulons which make em hard to play)
|
|
|
Post by stonewarrior on Jul 2, 2007 20:18:57 GMT
RIght on, thanks Funky!
My perspective on Stoneguad is it is very nice as is. Our speed while in Stoneguad is so slow I thought I would singlehandedly cause a respwawn on the 2nd map of Dispater as I made my way back to the beginning. To me this makes sense as we are in the form of a large "stone". However, if we are truly "immoble" it can leave the DD out of the equation in many battles. The mobs have a tendency to run around a lot changing targets or chasing the random bard / cleric that runs by. I am not suggesting we have the speed to catch the creatures (hell, I can't catch Aminzu's with my normal speed). Rather maintaining the current sloth like pace will allow us to make our way to the focal point of the battle.
Peace, John.
|
|
|
Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 2, 2007 20:25:15 GMT
True, but you no longer have to undo the ability to move, making it's potential coverage far greater. Funky
|
|
|
Post by stonewarrior on Jul 2, 2007 20:45:07 GMT
Agreed. I like it that way. Peace, John.
|
|
|
Post by cathedralmaster on Jul 2, 2007 20:58:33 GMT
No. The only foreseeable changes other than fighters getting a crit immune ability will be some tweaking to the DD ability, which was originally going to immobilize them. Funky Would you consider wisdom based range attackers (ie. wisdom based archers and wisdom based divine slingers) or have you already ruled those out?
|
|
|
Post by darkfyre on Jul 2, 2007 21:27:30 GMT
I play a Rogue with fighter and WM levels, with the typical Dex build with SC5 and epic dodge. While a friend plays a DD str Tank. on all of our runs I die 2-4 times more than him due to crits at bad times, while he survives much better even before he had the update to give him crit immunity. Think it might have somehting to do with the differnece in hp's 900 vs 1500 but still without crit immune for dex tanks it is not likely many are goign to want to drag them through the hells....
the AC on the 2 chars is 132 on Dex rogue in best UR gear out there unbuffed and 125ish on the Str tank in best UR gear out there unbuffed, so the diff in ac isnt that large, and besides when doesnt a str tank have mass camo from a druid giving at least 40+ conceal......
The only difference is about 10% coneal and epic dodge which while is nice jsut barely accomadates the loss in hps from the dex build now giving all str tanks crit immunity widens the gap between dex and str tank
'Darkfyre
|
|
|
Post by lala on Jul 3, 2007 0:32:30 GMT
I think where it needs to be studied is the difference between those with and without crit immunity when their character is ensnared/kd/etc.
It is at these times the difference really becomes noticable, even for SM with high conceal. 1 fiend can now take down a char in 2 rounds max that is KD due to the crits, while a crit immune char will last many more rounds.
I like the idea of the crits and the abilities tied into say crit immunity, it does seem to work well when comparing those with/without while in combat, however the crit situation seems to be skewed once both types are disabled by say petrification/entangle, etc. The challenge then is to equalise it out so the crits work for both situations of when in melee and when disabled and for all classes.
Two quick tweaks I can see are a bit crude but might open up ideas: 1. Remove crit immunity from most things and balance the crit dmg, result would be a more even overall dmg output for all classes caught in either the melee or disabled situation.
2. Keep crit immunity and expand it so when KD, entangles, etc occurs all chars (including those who usually are not immune) gain crit immunity. Once whatever disabled them wears off such as the KD/entangle they lose crit immunity if it is not part of their class and enabled.
Might be some sort of solution between these two as either of them are not ideal. Cheers Lala
|
|