LF advice on Siren bard build

[Sapphire [SL]]

Hello,
As the title suggests looking for any advice out there for a Siren bard build, scanned the base builds seems there is nothing including this subby that looks worthwhile.

Note sure whether to dual wield and choice of which short sword, handaxes, kukri, or other suggestions. Want to be heavy on the song/curses. Like to go pure bard but might be tempted by a PM splash if it is truely beneficial.

Not bothered too much by getting full tag list for bonuses as Siren subby has that 20% xp kick in the first place. Not too bothered either by the addition of spell powers as said before want more of a song/curse smith. Though do want enough to be able to look after ones self in a tight situation.

Any thoughts/ideas welcomed, many thanks

Sapphire

[arek]

Well, Troubadour looks like a great option for an open-subrace bard that could be adapted to Siren, tho it does splash paladin. You could, if you wanted, drop the paladin level, but I don't recommend it. Why? The saves. A pure bard would have to burn 6-8 feats to get saves like that!. Heck, I'd consider a second level of Paladin for fear immunity, even! A "song/curse bard" does NOT need to be pure, it needs to have certain feats (artist, leg. artist) instead. Using Siren, here's how I'd start the build:

STR 8/6
DEX 12/14
CON 16/14
WIS 8/8
INT 14/14
CHA 16/18

For your human bonus feat, take SF: Illusion.
From there, just follow the Troubadour build, except that you won't have enough skill points for PP or CA at the end of the build.
So...net change: +Lingering Song, +Extra Music, -2 STR, -57ish Skill points.

Now I'm going to give you my personal opinion: I don't think the trade-offs for going with Siren are worth it. A much better option for a bard (either epic/song/curse or battle) is Wraith. As a Wraith, you get free feat-level fear immunity, and free item-level immunity to death magic, sleep, poison, and disease. Personally, I consider the fear and sleep immunity to be invaluable. As for the charisma, +2 CHA isn't gonna be much help if you just want to hit 60 total charisma for the biggest epic auras. :-)

Here's how I would start the build:
Gnome/Wraith
8/5 STR
11/14 DEX
14/14 CON
8/8 WIS
13/14 INT
18/18 CHA

After that, just follow the Troubadour build as listed.
Net change: -3 STR (make sure you have bags of holding), +Complete Fear Immunity, +Sleep Immunity, +Death/Disease/Poison immunity.

Despite the extra STR drop, I think that this is a much better trade-off - one that makes you much more difficult to incapacitate, which in turn makes it considerably easier to do your job.

Just some ideas. :-)

--Arek

[Sapphire [SL]]

Thanks Arek, just the sort of thing was looking for didn't even think of looking at the open race builds LOL.
Still going with a Siren build just for a fun build will alter starting stats a little though..
STR 10/8
CON14/12
CHA18/20

Though may cost the build a bit in final saves think it still has good enough to just support role song/curse rather than direct melee in end game. Perhaps use a shortbow, pity there is no zen equivilent for CHA like there is for WIS.

[Raj]

Siren is by far superior for a new player because of best class bard and waterbreathing, both things useful when levelling up in LL.

True fear immunity and sleep immunity are some luxury mostly for abyss, and even there, there're some water maps; still, a wraith in abyss is not something we're going to see played anytime soon if not for fun/drag.

Don't bother with a shortbow in LL, your dmg output is minimal ( 4 attacks/round with no ab to speak about and arrows from quivers for 0-10ish dmg )

[Sapphire [SL]]

Thanks Raj,

What would you recommend other than a shortbow for the time I would be standing around waiting to heal someone else between song/curses ?

My point I guess is even 1 to 5 damage is better than nothing in these circumstances.

Sapphire

[Sapphire [SL]]

Thanks Raj,

What would you recommend other than a shortbow for the time I would be standing around waiting to heal someone else between song/curses ?

My point I guess is even 1 to 5 damage is better than nothing in these circumstances.

Sapphire

[arek]

Raj, I'm just going to say this: I agree that immunity to Sleep and True Fear immunity are most useful in the abyss, but true fear immunity does have its uses elsewhere as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if new areas start needing sleep immunity sooner or later. As for a Wraith bard being useless in the Abyss, this is one thing where I think you and I are gonna disagree. Wraith doesn't make a very good "True Caster" bard, but it does make a nice Battle (dexer) or Epic (song/curse/support) bard, and I don't see either of those builds as being useless in the Abyss, tho I do freely admit I haven't played there anywhere near as much as you have.

Sapphire [SL]: Actually, that spread gives you +1 reflex/will, and -60 HP, assuming you keep the Paladin level. That's a toss-up imo, since the extra CHA probably won't help you much other than the saves, which are already amazingly high, and the extra HP might be useful for when you get hit.

--Arek

[Sapphire [SL]]

Just another thought... how would it be if I took 3 pally levels on this build for the pally feat (divine health) at 3 pally levels or would it be useless considering would not be LG ?

Sapphire

[redbeard]

The Pally bonuses (saves, spells, etc.) only require good. They do not require lawful.

[Balduvard]

If you are considering a Paladin splash, you might want to take a look at this build I made with Siren as an option. I focused more on combat than bard abilities (though it certainly has no problem fulfilling the bard role), but you could make feat substitutions to tweak the build as you wished.

[Sapphire [SL]]

That shard build is impressive I had not considered any HS levels, might be I should, but I might wait til after this Siren. Also thanks to you Red for the confirmation of Pally divine health feat.

Sapphire

[Raj]

Jan 11, 2012 17:45:30 GMT Sapphire [SL] said:

Thanks Raj,

What would you recommend other than a shortbow for the time I would be standing around waiting to heal someone else between song/curses ?

My point I guess is even 1 to 5 damage is better than nothing in these circumstances.

Sapphire

Is better than nothing but takes away some slots ( weapon, shield ) that are better used for more spells/immunities. If you can't think of yourself as a pure support bard then Baldy's build is a nice one.

Jan 11, 2012 18:27:58 GMT arek said:

Raj, I'm just going to say this: I agree that immunity to Sleep and True Fear immunity are most useful in the abyss, but true fear immunity does have its uses elsewhere as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if new areas start needing sleep immunity sooner or later.

Such as, Aboleths dream larvaes and Ely deathless champion? True fear immunity is self-buffed with Dirge of Deathless, even if the bard is immune to those attacks he's going to activate it to help the party ( same against DKs and Graz'zt ). About this being a realistic goal for a siren/wraith bard...

As for a Wraith bard being useless in the Abyss, this is one thing where I think you and I are gonna disagree.

I never said that. I just said that's not going to happen anytime soon because by the time one reaches high level areas he's going to have something better than wraith to build his bard, only exceptions being he wants to be a funny looking wraith or he's too lazy to reinc/rebuild/farm enough gold to buy a couple of half-decent books ( but with today prices, a couple of ur books are going to cost him less than 100 millions, a matter of couple hours farming with another caster or just couple hells runs ).
Planning a secret subrace for the hardest areas of the mod is giving bad advice to a first timer more interested in realistic accomplishments.

[Glanya Frostwing]

Jan 11, 2012 17:45:30 GMT Sapphire [SL] said:

What would you recommend other than a shortbow for the time I would be standing around waiting to heal someone else between song/curses ?

What about using a sling? I don't know all the items available, but I picked up a +16 (+20 vs dragons) sling from Uroboros the other day - letting you still use a shield to get some additional resists and such, and still be able to hit things (on a 20, at least) without getting your face bitten off. Pouches of endless bullets for different damage types, as well, and then like you said - better to be plinking away a few points at a time than doing nothing.

[Sapphire [SL]]

I like the idea of using a sling along with a shield if I cound find one that negates arcane failure for the odd spell I might cast. Granted I could go without a shield probably til I get to LL's.

Sapphire

[redbeard]

There are a lot of "fashion accessories" that have bard spell slots and are equipped in the right hand. If all you want is curse and epics, you don't need to use them. I'll let you decide if your spell penetration and DC make the extra slots worthwhile. You can also decide if the other features of the items can be covered by your other gear.

Some of the epics do their best job (Dirge, UUU) when you're close to the tanks, and you want your curse song to get as many of the bad guys as possible. Using a sling would keep you from being flat-footed but you would still provoke attacks of opportunity if you wind up in the front line.