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Post by desocupado on Feb 7, 2012 0:13:02 GMT
Update2015/03/24 Changed build around to play the strengths of the build - AB, AC, Disarm & Knockdown (included both KD/Dis and Imp Expertise, and Form defense feats) To do list:
Improve the build based on suggestions and discussion
Testing - This is still an alpha version of a non-regular approach to shifting.
Iron Chimera (Ranger 22 / Druid 5 / Shifter 13)
(Image taken from wikipedia - make sure to visit it)
Overview:
Think of this build as mix of Weapon master and Lash of hatred. You can KD and Disarm well and inflict vulnerabilities. AC is good and gets amazing with Improved expertise.
This build is a derail from discussing tomaan's Swiss Army Tank build. This is an optimization on tanking capacity by decreasing versatility, i.e. no DC or undead shapes.
That being said, this is a sturdy tank with very high AB/AC and Very High CON, with the versatility of choosing to be Uni, Str or Dex tank at will, and damage types.
The payoff is the inability to use wands, scrolls, items or quickly swap weapons.
Keep in mind it's a bad idea to level up this build from level 1, since shapes have low AB and AC before 55+ (it's especially tough at 40)
Requirements:
Preferably a level (55+) character eligible for reincarnation
Pros:
Very high hitpoints
4 base attacks, which means 6 with haste and LFF Humanoid.
Tank Versatility - You can be Uni, Str or Dex at will or even archer! - You can also inflict elemental vulnerability with Lizardfolk.
Great skill selection: Disciple, Parry, Tumble, Listen, Craft Weapon, Craft Armor, Concentration and Hide = 63
Saves over 60
Paragon of Disarming and knockdown with over 115 AB potential.
Has Mass Camouflage to increase conceal
Cheap to maintain (no slagging, no specific weapon type, no pandect or Arty required)
Cons:
No DC or Animal Empathy, you just shift to adjust you tanking needs, without relying on DC skills.
No critical immunity
It's required to unshift in order to swap weapons (This is even more annoying than a Barbarian's Shapestrong weapon swapping).
No damage modifiers
Character creation:
Base: Human
Subrace: Anarch (Wraith, Planewalker, Planewalker or some subrace with strider can work as well)
Str 8
Dex 8
Con 16->20 (+12/level +4/Leg. Ranger)
Wis 16->22 (+08/level)
Int 16
Cha 8
(Level up points go into constitution)
Level order: Ranger 21 -> Druid 5 -> Shifter 13 -> Ranger 1
Saves (with +12 gear):
Fort 12 +19/Con+35/standard= 66
Will 6 + 15/Wis +4/feat +35/standard = 62
Reflex 6 +6/feats +11/base dex +35/standard= 58 (As lizard - drow gets +2 and saugian -3)
Skills: all at 63
Disciple, Parry, Tumble, Listen, Craft Weapon, Craft Armor, Concentration and Hide
Feats:
Anarch bonus feats:
Martial weapon proficiency
Armor skin
Weapon Spec - Regular and Epic
Alertness
Pre-epic (Ranger 20)
Blooded & Lightning Reflexes
WF: unarmed
GWF
Improved Critical
Expertise
Improved Expertise
Heavy armor Prof
Epic = 7+1/bonus (Ranger 1, Druid 5, Shifter 13 --> Ranger 1)
21 Bane of Enemies
EWF
Epic Prowess
Knockdown
Improved Knockdown
Epic Will
Epic Reflexes
39 Epic energy resistance (epic shifter bonus feat) // might be swapped to undead form for negible gains
Legendary = 7
Legendary Form Defense
LSA: Tumble
LFF Humanoid 1-3
57 LWF
60 Legendary KnockdownParagon = 6 // read Disarm Pandect
PFF Humanoid
Dex check +4
Paragon Knockdown
PWF
Legendary Disarm
Paragon Disarm
AC and AB calculations (non-bur gear or artifacts)
AB: 45/bab +8/wf+gwf+ewf+EP+LWF +2 (craft weapon) +20/magic bonus = total 75 (+shape) - //Lizard has 106 ab at 60/+12 i.e. you can use improved expertise and hit well
+2 PFF
+2 PWF
+5 PBAB
+1/+2 Demigod bonus & +1 level 80 bonus (not sure if he gets these)
AC (UR gear)
10 - base
16 - natural
18 - armor
16 - deflection
20 - dodge+haste
12 - tumble
2 - armor skin
2 - craft armor
3 - class ac bonus (LFF)
Total = 100 + shape dex and shield bonus ac // Lizard has 135 at 60/+12
Armed Shape modifiers at PL 60 and LFF 3:
Drow - 28 ab 30 ac
Kobold - 30 ab 35 ac (add +1 from small size)
Lizard - 31 ab 35 ac
Kenku 32 ab 35 ac
Sahuagin 28 ab 30 ac
Gear guidelines:
Try to get great Overwhelming Critical and Devastating Critical unarmed on your gear. Besides that, just be as bulky as you can.
Weapons: You can use any melee one handed weapon. Sap are quit good as they never slag.
Shield: While Ac doesn't merge, the shield's resistance bonuses do, so choose accordingly.
Alternatively use the torches:
Shape Usage mini-guide:
Humanoid
Lizard - Near Uni-tank with decent AB/AC and debuff target resistance. Indicated for any bosses and general DPS purposes.
Drow - Uni-tank with improved evasion and Morning star
Kobold - Dex Tank
Kenku - Do more damage than a A.A. if you have a heavily buffed dustbone weapon.
Sahuagin - Drops 5 AC to deal 2 handed piercing damage
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Post by maljin on Feb 7, 2012 7:01:21 GMT
Saves (with +12 gear): Fort 12 +23 (Con=20+20+12+4) +35/items = 70 Will 6 + 12/wis +6/feats +35 = 59 (add +4 if Epic Will - reccomended) Reflex 6 +2/feat +7/feat +6/feats +5/basedex +35 = 61 ... AC and AB calculations (non-bur gear or artifacts) AB: 45/bab +8/wf+gwf+ewf+EP+LWF +2 (craft weapon) +20/magic bonus = total 75 (+shape)
It also gets +5 against favored enemies (5 types).
I believe there is an addtional +2 due Bane of Enemies feat.
The str based humanoid forms (lizard, drow, sahuagin) have a base dex score of 14-24, so your value of base dex 5 is about right (give or take two depending on form) but you didn't include the +6 from items anywhere. I'd probably go for leg reflexes and leg will without the +6 reflex/will feat and use half-elf as a base race since immunity to sleep might be more interesting than the extra bonus feat from human (you've got plenty of feats to spare). Requires some feat shuffling though. Bane of enemies adds +2 ab and 2d6 physical damage vs fav enemies, but the normal fav enemy feats don't add any ab, just damage. You can also pick up power crit: unarmed with one of your free feats unless you'll be tanking crit immune stuff for most of the time (then dev crit unarmed isn't that attractive either). |
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Post by desocupado on Feb 7, 2012 10:43:57 GMT
The str based humanoid forms (lizard, drow, sahuagin) have a base dex score of 14-24, so your value of base dex 5 is about right (give or take two depending on form) but you didn't include the +6 from items anywhere. I'd probably go for leg reflexes and leg will without the +6 reflex/will feat and use half-elf as a base race since immunity to sleep might be more interesting than the extra bonus feat from human (you've got plenty of feats to spare). Requires some feat shuffling though. The idea is extremely high saves (the magic +12 dex, with base dex 8 is when unmorphed, hence +5. Anything above 8 will increase reflex by 1). Bane of enemies adds +2 ab and 2d6 physical damage vs fav enemies, but the normal fav enemy feats don't add any ab, just damage. Ooooops, I didn't realize that, thanks for pointing out. You can also pick up power crit: unarmed with one of your free feats unless you'll be tanking crit immune stuff for most of the time (then dev crit unarmed isn't that attractive either). I'll add it too the Optional feat section then. Thank you very much for pointing the mistakes  . |
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Post by Shroomery_ on Feb 7, 2012 20:21:33 GMT
I am building this with fallen angel, here is my variant.
20 Ranger/5 Druid/13 Shifter/2 Ranger
Human: Fallen Angel
STR: 8
DEX: 8
CON: 18
WIS: 12
INT: 16
CHA: 8
All stats to Constitution!
FE #1: Outsiders
FE #2: Abberations
FE #3: Shapechangers
FE #4: Magical Beasts
FE #5: Monstrous Humanoids
01: Blooded, Strong Soul (Swap for Slippery Soul), FE
03: Alertness
05: FE
06: Extended Spell
09: Heavy Armor
10: FE
12: WF Unarmed
15: GWF Unarmed, FE
18: Imp Crit Unarmed
20: FE
21: Armor Skin
24: EWF Unarmed
27: Epic Prowess
30: Iron Will
33: Epic Will
36: Epic Reflexes
38: Great Wisdom I
39: Bane of Enemies
42: LSA Tumble
45: LFF Humanoid I
48: LFF Humanoid II
51: LFF Humanoid III
54: LWF Unarmed
57: Hardened Soul
60: Legendary Will
Max Concentration, Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Discipline, Hide, Listen, Parry, 60 Tumble, 3 Animal Empathy.
Use Disarm Pandect!
Read Enchantment Book!
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Post by desocupado on Feb 7, 2012 20:59:13 GMT
I am building this with fallen angel, here is my variant. 20 Ranger/5 Druid/13 Shifter/2 Ranger Human: Fallen Angel STR: 8 DEX: 8 CON: 18 WIS: 12 INT: 16 CHA: 8 All stats to Constitution! FE #1: Outsiders FE #2: Abberations FE #3: Shapechangers FE #4: Magical Beasts FE #5: Monstrous Humanoids 01: Blooded, Strong Soul (Swap for Slippery Soul), FE 03: Alertness 05: FE 06: Extended Spell 09: Heavy Armor 10: FE 12: WF Unarmed 15: GWF Unarmed, FE 18: Imp Crit Unarmed 20: FE 21: Armor Skin 24: EWF Unarmed 27: Epic Prowess 30: Iron Will 33: Epic Will 36: Epic Reflexes 38: Great Wisdom I 39: Bane of Enemies 42: LSA Tumble 45: LFF Humanoid I 48: LFF Humanoid II 51: LFF Humanoid III 54: LWF Unarmed 57: Hardened Soul 60: Legendary Will Max Concentration, Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Discipline, Hide, Listen, Parry, 60 Tumble, 3 Animal Empathy. Use Disarm Pandect! Read Enchantment Book! Saves (add in +35 from gear) Reflex 6 +5(+12 gear at base dex 8) +6 +4 = 21 - at dex 8 - keep in mind Lizard is 20, i.e. +6 reflex over this Fortitude 12 +20 = 32 Will 6 +10 +6 +2 +4 = 26 Well I'm still in doubt if the disarm pandect is worth on this build. Is Levitaiton form subby kept on all shapes? (i believe it does, tough it doesn't make sense  ) |
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Post by Shroomery_ on Feb 8, 2012 1:53:43 GMT
Currently level 5 with this, gonna be building it a little later, about 30 mins from now Hopefully gonna get it decently high, hopefully 15-20 tonight then 35-40 tomorrow! Shroomery_ |
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Post by desocupado on Feb 8, 2012 2:56:25 GMT
This build should not be leveled from scratch.
Your shapes AB/AC/Damage are very low before level 50. Also, as ranger you are extremely weak, no? Let us know how it turns out.
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Post by uncanny on Feb 20, 2012 12:37:32 GMT
My own strain of this type of build (used Zeny, and got two LFF3 shape types) was "ok" from lvl30 as a shifter, it got better until I'm more often than not the last person standing in a wipe, regardless of where (hence I try use humanoid now for rez ability). Before 30 I found it works best to play as a simple str tank. Pre-30 you lose out mostly on being able to have the optimised shapes; it worked out fine and I didn't need anything. I went with high wisdom, though perhaps I would have been better served with con  With Paragon levels you could actually afford LFF3 Undead and end up with some crit immune options to boot |
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Post by desocupado on Feb 20, 2012 15:58:44 GMT
Well, there are options but:
Let's see:
Paragon Feats:
PFF Humanoid
Shape Defense
Paragon Shape Defense
PWF
Free 2
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Post by maljin on Jun 25, 2012 11:16:50 GMT
Stumbled across this build again when I was looking for "a tank with tricks" that is a bit more sturdier than my staffmaster or aa. I've come up with a -HC- treant version which sits at lvl 30 now, but looking at some other subraces I've got available I was thinking of starting again with either wraith or doppelganger.
Treant has quite nice stats, large size (more weapons to chose from), a free feat (armor skin), 50% cold, -25% fire, slow movement speed (partially alleviated by FoM though) and a 20% xp bonus.
Doppelganger has a free feat or two as well and creature weapon spec. Other than for the weapon spec treant is better imho; but does creature weapon spec actually transfer to armed forms? I've got a belt with epic weapon spec: unarmed but this doesn't seem to transfer to my armed forms (tried on my ability mage with LFF: undead 3 on risen lord). If creature weapon spec doesn't transfer either, doppelganger is out right away and I just need to decide between my treant and a rebuild with wraith.
With wraith I'd probably have slightly lower con (which isn't a factor that bothers me) but feat level immunity to fear, sleep, poison and disease so I thought that might be quite a nice addition to the build (might as well use a dex arti instead of con with wraith then). The other downside is that I'd lose a feat or two and thought of dropping sf: and gsf: trans which I've included in the treant build (one taken instead of a fav. enemy) to use blade thirst on any weapon I want.
Is it possible to cast blade thirst on piercing and bludgeoning weapons with just an item that has gsf: trans or do I need to take the feat on level up for this functionality?
And I've noticed that none of the ranger CC shifter builds in here is actually taking gsf: trans. Do you feel comfortable with just slashing weapons or is blade thirst actually used all that often later on? I might just read a trans tome instead of ench for the pos dam dice and rely on gmw or IoF from others which will probably top my my own blade thirst anyway...even with esf: ench.
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Post by desocupado on Jun 25, 2012 14:23:43 GMT
Stumbled across this build again when I was looking for "a tank with tricks" that is a bit more sturdier than my staffmaster or aa. I've come up with a -HC- treant version which sits at lvl 30 now, but looking at some other subraces I've got available I was thinking of starting again with either wraith or doppelganger. The problem of using this build in HC is that you can't reincarnate and using shapes to fight is inviable between 20-54. If you manage to do this make sure to tell us. But expect some leeching at desert. Treant has quite nice stats, large size (more weapons to chose from), a free feat (armor skin), 50% cold, -25% fire, slow movement speed (partially alleviated by FoM though) and a 20% xp bonus. Doppelganger has a free feat or two as well and creature weapon spec. Other than for the weapon spec treant is better imho; but does creature weapon spec actually transfer to armed forms? I've got a belt with epic weapon spec: unarmed but this doesn't seem to transfer to my armed forms (tried on my ability mage with LFF: undead 3 on risen lord). If creature weapon spec doesn't transfer either, doppelganger is out right away and I just need to decide between my treant and a rebuild with wraith. With wraith I'd probably have slightly lower con (which isn't a factor that bothers me) but feat level immunity to fear, sleep, poison and disease so I thought that might be quite a nice addition to the build (might as well use a dex arti instead of con with wraith then). The other downside is that I'd lose a feat or two and thought of dropping sf: and gsf: trans which I've included in the treant build (one taken instead of a fav. enemy) to use blade thirst on any weapon I want. Is it possible to cast blade thirst on piercing and bludgeoning weapons with just an item that has gsf: trans or do I need to take the feat on level up for this functionality? Indeed Weapon Spec isn't transferring to armed shapes. But It seems to transfer to unarmed shapes only when you equip any weapon (maybe we should call this bug?). And I've noticed that none of the ranger CC shifter builds in here is actually taking gsf: trans. Do you feel comfortable with just slashing weapons or is blade thirst actually used all that often later on? I might just read a trans tome instead of ench for the pos dam dice and rely on gmw or IoF from others which will probably top my my own blade thirst anyway...even with esf: ench. If I'm not mistaken, you keep the bonuses from blade thirst when you morph and change weapon type, so basically you are stuck with any slashing weapon (that can be changed later to piercing/blungeoning/slashing) |
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Post by maljin on Jun 25, 2012 16:18:16 GMT
Thanks for your answers. I'm not worried about getting to lvl 50; between the lowbie quests and high level -HC- characters running uro every other day, my characters usually have enough xp for lvl 48 before we even get a party together for MoaD.
I'll drop gsf: trans and go with wraith then. Tiny, small and medium slashing weapons will have to suffice but I suppose even with this "restricted" selection I'll have plenty to chose from and won't need to craft some to get my favourite damage types.
I'll let you know how it turns out.
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Post by desocupado on Jun 25, 2012 17:25:03 GMT
Martial options:
Small: Sickle, Handaxe
Medium: Battleaxe Longsword Scimitar
Exotic proficiency has several extra weapons, tough Handaxe, Battleaxe and Longsword are enough cheap options.
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Post by maljin on Oct 14, 2012 20:25:40 GMT
[...] If you manage to do this make sure to tell us. But expect some leeching at desert. [...] Got my wraith version of this to level 53 now. While from 1-30 you'll do fine as a normal str tank (who can also use certain powerful animals), you'll most likely need help for the rest of your pre-LL career. I was fortunate enough to have some nice gear and hit around 90 ac unshifted so I was able to spawn just about any pre-LL mob and keep them on me while the rest of the group just did whatever they do best. Obviously this tactic works best if you've got some sort of caster you can work with to get the lvl 30-40 tags done. Shifting into any form would increase my ab by about 10, while dropping ac from 15 (sahuagin) to 10 (drow, kobold). With the ability to use any weapon you want, try to use the one which can be buffed most within your current group, a fully buffed sahuagin does very well even compared to a staffmaster if your weapon sports the "buffable" damage types (staffmasters are kinda restricted in their choice). Once I was immo and fully tagged, I had enough xp for level 48 and took the first two LFF: Humanoid and LSA: Tumble. I hit around 115 ac in lizard shape which was barely enough for runs typically done at that level, ab is a bit low as well. From level 50 on I got 1 or 2 ac every level from the increased shield ac (and tumble). With a decent gear selection (I'm changing half of my inv for every LL run) you'll do fine on just about any LL run now, and can stand up to just about any check there is at that level (so far I've tried uro, myco, toyshop, beholders, desert, db and elemental planes). The most annoying thing is switching weapons since you need to unshift first. While reincarnating a lvl 51 or 54 character to this is a very good idea, leveling one from scratch can be done as well. I suppose the most painful levels are those from 40 to 48 which I skipped doing quests while hunting the pre-LL tags (they fall hand in hand if done the right way). From level 51 on you'll be able to hold your own just as well as any other tank. |
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Post by desocupado on Oct 14, 2012 22:52:59 GMT
[...] If you manage to do this make sure to tell us. But expect some leeching at desert. [...] Got my wraith version of this to level 53 now. While from 1-30 you'll do fine as a normal str tank (who can also use certain powerful animals), you'll most likely need help for the rest of your pre-LL career. I was fortunate enough to have some nice gear and hit around 90 ac unshifted so I was able to spawn just about any pre-LL mob and keep them on me while the rest of the group just did whatever they do best. Obviously this tactic works best if you've got some sort of caster you can work with to get the lvl 30-40 tags done. Shifting into any form would increase my ab by about 10, while dropping ac from 15 (sahuagin) to 10 (drow, kobold). With the ability to use any weapon you want, try to use the one which can be buffed most within your current group, a fully buffed sahuagin does very well even compared to a staffmaster if your weapon sports the "buffable" damage types (staffmasters are kinda restricted in their choice). Once I was immo and fully tagged, I had enough xp for level 48 and took the first two LFF: Humanoid and LSA: Tumble. I hit around 115 ac in lizard shape which was barely enough for runs typically done at that level, ab is a bit low as well. From level 50 on I got 1 or 2 ac every level from the increased shield ac (and tumble). With a decent gear selection (I'm changing half of my inv for every LL run) you'll do fine on just about any LL run now, and can stand up to just about any check there is at that level (so far I've tried uro, myco, toyshop, beholders, desert, db and elemental planes). The most annoying thing is switching weapons since you need to unshift first. While reincarnating a lvl 51 or 54 character to this is a very good idea, leveling one from scratch can be done as well. I suppose the most painful levels are those from 40 to 48 which I skipped doing quests while hunting the pre-LL tags (they fall hand in hand if done the right way). From level 51 on you'll be able to hold your own just as well as any other tank. Glad you could make it from level 1. I guess this kind build doesn't really require Anarch (In fact it should be doable with any subrace that doesn't decrease Wisdom, Int or Con). I'll add your observations at the first post. Another hint I could give is using Kenku's bow attack, since it keeps weapon buffs you had before morphing. ---------------- Update issuesSince this build was sketched before the Legendary/Paragon Form Defense feats, we must add these feats. We can probably ditch Leg. Reflex, since most shapes have more than 10 base Dex, and keep Epic Reflexes (netting -3 Reflex potential). ---Dex Numbers at CL 60 (Parenthesis have the number to be added to reflex save): Drow Warrior 24 (+8 Reflex) Kobold Commando 59 (+25 reflex) Lizardfolk Whipmaster 20 (+6 Reflex) Kenku 63 (+27 Reflex) Sahuagin 14 (+3 Reflex) Another thing to consider is the Epic/Legendary/Paragon Disarm/KD feats, given the high AB potential of the shapes. Also don't forget you can add a Disarm/KD pandect as well to get the other corresponding feat. |
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