|
Post by redbeard on Feb 17, 2012 21:15:08 GMT
Demi bonuses don't help in getting the ability to cast higher level spells (17 Int before collecting + 2 demi bonus does not allow casting 9th level spells). I doubt that you can take planar turning without actually taking 25 "real" points in Wis. This isn't true. Demi bonuses count as "real" points. The only way you *cant* do this is via reincarnation, because if you could cast level 9 spells before (even with bonuses) you need to be able to cast level 9 spells before you can reclaim the bonuses (without the bonuses). Hmmm. Open mouth, insert foot.
|
|
|
Post by CataclysmicDeath on Feb 17, 2012 22:08:12 GMT
I think a few years ago this wasn't the case, but it was changed, which may mean some information in build threads is inaccurate. The builds will be accurate enough as long as they are builds that require Reinc to get the stats. I don't think it actually states it anywhere in the Reinc Info though, either. Cata
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2012 9:42:03 GMT
Well I did it and am quite happy with it, though paragon dropped just as I was reincarnating so I had to get wis to 25 prior to any demi bonuses. Fair enough. BG turner is a heck of a lot of fun to play. Next reincarnation though (after next demi or more), I'll make it cc cleric. I know I am losing the 4 cha from bg ll's, but thats only 2dc. If I score an rg rather than the pharlan I've been using, it won't matter a bit.
|
|
|
Post by uncanny on Feb 29, 2012 9:52:15 GMT
Well I did it and am quite happy with it, though paragon dropped just as I was reincarnating so I had to get wis to 25 prior to any demi bonuses. Fair enough. BG turner is a heck of a lot of fun to play. Next reincarnation though (after next demi or more), I'll make it cc cleric. I know I am losing the 4 cha from bg ll's, but thats only 2dc. If I score an rg rather than the pharlan I've been using, it won't matter a bit. Not sure mate.. I think turners live and die by DC.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2012 16:02:30 GMT
It gets a little complicated. I'm not even entirely sure myself, but afaik by going pure cleric you max out turner level, which compensates for the lower cha score (the dc remains the same in other words). Also, afaik by splashing bg or pal into a cc cleric build AND using a godswrath ego item, you are maxing out DC while retaining the benefits of the bg/pal cha saves bonus. Using godswrath on a maxed pure cleric turner (afaik) has no effect because turner level (etc) is capped.
If I am wrong about this, someone please explain.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Mar 2, 2012 0:00:00 GMT
Definitely can't say for 100% certainty but my understanding has always been that yeah, +CL (or TL in turner case) ego items don't offer any benefit for pures.
Would also like to know if this is incorrect.
|
|
|
Post by Werehound Silverfang on Mar 2, 2012 15:31:35 GMT
Turner Ego increases the number of creatures you can turn at once, but not the "power" of your turns, for anyone.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 1:38:38 GMT
Were,
So the $10,000 question (for me) is : Blackguard cc (with the 4 extra cha) doesn't really have any higher destruction power than cc cleric (or pure cleric) and the ego ring makes absolutely no difference to stun of destroy power but rather to amount of things stunner/destroyed (turned in general)?
|
|
|
Post by maljin on Mar 3, 2012 9:47:49 GMT
BG and pally turners have a -2 penalty to their turner level compared to pure cleric, which in the first hand affects what they can turn. So when attempting a turn you roll turn power (so turner level (see above) modified by your domains / planar turning) + 1d8 against the target's turn resistance. That means pure clerics can potentially turn stuff with a higher turn resistance (2 more than a bg/pally turner) but as there's a 1d8 roll involved it's probably not gonna happen until you've spent a couple of rounds just pressing the turn undead button. There's no save check involved in just turning stuff at all, so as long as you've got the right domains, planar turning and have enough cleric/pally/bg levels, your targets will be stunned regardless to cha mod. The cha only affects the no of targets affected and the destruction dc (see below): Once a target is turned (e.g. stunned or feared) you can turn again and if the turn power check exceeds the turn resistance of the mob by 10, you force a destruction check. This is why you can't destroy a pit fiend: the wiki lists 84 turn resistance, so a dedicated turner would be able to stun one, but not be able to force destruction checks, since you can't get above 88 turn power even with the best roll. The DC of this is turn level / 4 + cha mod + 1 or 2 depending on the distance between you and your target. Turn level is again your cleric level (with -2 for bg/pally levels) modified by domains. In general you could say that a bg/pally with the extra 4 cha can get 2 more dc than a cleric with, but since the dc also depends on levels, this comes down to just 1 compared to a pure cleric (once you've used up your smiting attempts; for the first 3 turns you'll have 2 more dc). Cha also affects the no of creatures (described by their total turn resistance) you can turn in a single attempt which is (cha mod + turner level) * 3. So the 4 more cha from pally/bg result in 6 higher than a cleric while the level penalty will be 6 as well. So there's no difference in no of mobs turned between a pure cleric and a bg/pally with 2 more cha. Now this is the value that is influenced by the turner ego item. I think it adds 1/3 so with the item equipped, change the equation above into (cha mod + turner level) * 4. I can't figure out how good that is in general as it depends on the amount of turn resistance combined in a spawn. I think the best way to answer the question if a turner ego is worth its price is to ask a turner already using one how many more mobs he can turn on a typical Hell/Abyss/whatever spawn. Or some kind of percentage (e.g. without the item you need to turn three times until everything is stunned, with it just two times). Example: In this post Xiayu listed the turn levels (= turn power) for a pure cleric with all domains: - Undead: TL + 1 per 2 LL with Sun domain: 70 - Vermin: TL + 1 per 4 LL with Plant domain: 65 - Elemental: TL + 1 per 4 LL with any elemental domain: 65 - Outsider: TL + 1 per LL with Good/Evil domain: 80 - Constructs don't get a bonus with their domain: 60 For a pure bg or pally turner with e.g. 10 cleric and 50 bg levels and all domains, this would go to 68, 63, 63, 78 for undead, vermin, elemental and outsiders respectively once you've used your smiting attempts. Since nwn always rounds down you'll be ahead 1 dc for vermin, elementals and outsiders (and constructs), and 2 dc ahead (regardless of smiting attempts left) for undead. Imho you give up quite a lot with a bg/pally turner for that 1 or 2 dc. Probably not worth losing epics, gate and spells. Though if you can fit in some smiting or ab to hit stuff or whatever else on the bg, you might turn the comparison to its favor. Aside from that I always compared a pure cleric to a bg/pall turner. Compare a cleric with a pally splash and you're always 2 dc ahead, and just 1 turn level lower. And you can turn certain good aligned stuff in certain areas a pure cleric (or one with a pally level) can't turn at all. mal
|
|
|
Post by simpetar on Mar 3, 2012 17:03:37 GMT
You might want to take in consideration that as of 2011-06-27, Smite Good / Evil recharges roughly 1 use/minute for anybody with 40 pally + BG levels. With Extra Smiting feat you can expend the smite to do full power turn (-2 penalty for BG or pally not applied). To sum up: you can do in average 1 full power turn per 20 seconds, with BG +4 charisma bonus, with a "pure" pally / BG. Alas, cannot control it when...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 2:20:49 GMT
Fantastic, informative thread, thanks guys so much. I have played everything in hg other than Bard, and by far turning is the single most powerful and fun ability. Now...
maljin,
What is the roll for PF destruction? I am thinking total maxed out, level 80, 2x demi bonuses, cha arty, godswrath turner.
BTW I am noticing on a lvl 69, 1x demi bg turner with 72 cha and godswrath that anything with 81 or less TR pops within a few turns, with full penalties and no gr, no song in hades.
LL runs full of creatures covered by taken domains are almost easier and quicker than the beetle caves.
Considering non-mini, non-boss cha 'exorcist' destruction: I have to reserach a bit but it seems with a will save of 56, things like PF's can be destroyed with maxed cha, and all spell foci if hit with maxed Rebuke. Edit: Actually...considering curse and other stacking save lowering effects....seems the cha turner (the exorcist) can turn three times to stun everything and destroy the majority of trash, then spam rebuke on non-trash and simply destroy it as well. Pretty excited about getting this thing to 5x and lvl 80, splashing bg for saves, and making it a cc cleric with maxed cha.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 5:00:53 GMT
A Pit Fiend has turn resistance (TR) of 84.
You would need a turning power (TP) roll of 95 or more to force a destruction check against the Pit Fiend's will save.
However, maximum turning power for outsiders is 88 so you will never force a destruction check.
Remember TP = turner level (TL) + 1d8
TL is based on class levels and domain feats and it's independent of charisma and demi bonuses.
The best you can do currently for TL is a pure cleric turner at level 60 with the appropriate domain feat for the critter you would like to turn.
Nevertheless very high charisma turners are extremely powerful and the stunning effect significantly reduces a spawns threat to a party.
That's actually why the Godswrath ego is very helpful - it increases the amount of the spawn that you can stun.
|
|
|
Post by maljin on Mar 4, 2012 7:55:15 GMT
You might want to take in consideration that as of 2011-06-27, Smite Good / Evil recharges roughly 1 use/minute for anybody with 40 pally + BG levels. With Extra Smiting feat you can expend the smite to do full power turn (-2 penalty for BG or pally not applied). To sum up: you can do in average 1 full power turn per 20 seconds, with BG +4 charisma bonus, with a "pure" pally / BG. Alas, cannot control it when... This is quite interesting. So far I thought it was great smite recharging at 1 min for pure pally/bg...doesn't make that much sense in hindsight though since its recharge is already affected by the no of great smiting feats you've got. But since you have to be pure for this to take effect, you'll miss the cleric level and with it the two "free" domains. That's two more LL feats to spend unless you decide to go with less domains. Also keep in mind that pally/bg doesn't get great wis as bonus feats, so to get the 25 wis required for planar turning you have to spend another 2 epic feats on that requirement while a pure cleric would just pick up all those with his bonus feats and spend all the normal feats on great cha.
|
|
|
Post by gandoron on Mar 4, 2012 14:45:59 GMT
Simpetar, did they change smite good/evil. I used to only get 1 use per rest or 3 with extra smiting. I ran a "stunner" BG for 2 hell trips (great before rak shapeshifter change). does it now recharge on a timer?
also, remember that you need a 2 step process to turn. first you need to stun, then you can only turn stunned mobs, so the ego lets you actually turn more mobs faster.
-G
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 15:26:21 GMT
A Pit Fiend has turn resistance (TR) of 84. You would need a turning power (TP) roll of 95 or more to force a destruction check against the Pit Fiend's will save. However, maximum turning power for outsiders is 88 so you will never force a destruction check. Remember TP = turner level (TL) + 1d8 TL is based on class levels and domain feats and it's independent of charisma and demi bonuses. The best you can do currently for TL is a pure cleric turner at level 60 with the appropriate domain feat for the critter you would like to turn. Nevertheless very high charisma turners are extremely powerful and the stunning effect significantly reduces a spawns threat to a party. That's actually why the Godswrath ego is very helpful - it increases the amount of the spawn that you can stun. Great info. and answers an important question. The other question: what exactly is needed to destroy PF's (instakill) PF's with Rebuke? I don't see PF's (or Balors, or Mari, or Males) with Rebuke on the spells imm list. The "bg turning questions" thread is turning into a "Cha Turner/Destroyer" thread....nice. A fairly obscure, incredibly powerful sub-class, perhaps worthy of quasi-class status (Exorcist). IMO CHA is such an incredibly powerful stat- no other stat affects every major offensive and defensive ability: AB, AC, Damage, DC, Saves, Turning power. Time to sthu, this kind of thing is prolly best suited for a semi-private guild forum.
|
|