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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2012 16:49:22 GMT
I did some Oinos with overdriver, and discussed a bit the build and etc. I've seen what rajah meant about the effect of TR 57 + domain, one losses the power to attempt to destroy many mobs by not going pure, or missing the smite in the pally/BG case, I'd like to add my two cents tough. If someone else stun the mobs, you can try using the full turning power - tough this is unlekely and limited, it is still a possibility. With more CHA, the stun is harder to break than a cleric equivalent. One could drop a few feats/stats to grab OC DC Blooded LSA tumble, perhaps by discarding a few domains, this would allow better tank performance. Thanks desco, this has kinda of been a project that you, me, and frag have been working on and your input and experiments with it are appreciated. Have you been on a full run with this toon yet? Again I will reiterate that cc cleric will be a superior choice, losing almost nothing in the trade and gaining a lot. I am thinking primarily of self GR'ing, divine lsf for gate, and- of course- the epics. It will even tank much better given divine power, lsf div gate, rapier wit, substantive dmg buffs, iof etc. *throwing props to Raj as well, offering sound and glib, advice from his untouchable place up there or something
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Post by desocupado on Mar 14, 2012 18:07:56 GMT
I did some Oinos with overdriver, and discussed a bit the build and etc. I've seen what rajah meant about the effect of TR 57 + domain, one losses the power to attempt to destroy many mobs by not going pure, or missing the smite in the pally/BG case, I'd like to add my two cents tough. If someone else stun the mobs, you can try using the full turning power - tough this is unlekely and limited, it is still a possibility. With more CHA, the stun is harder to break than a cleric equivalent. One could drop a few feats/stats to grab OC DC Blooded LSA tumble, perhaps by discarding a few domains, this would allow better tank performance. Thanks desco, this has kinda of been a project that you, me, and frag have been working on and your input and experiments with it are appreciated. Have you been on a full run with this toon yet? Again I will reiterate that cc cleric will be a superior choice, losing almost nothing in the trade and gaining a lot. I am thinking primarily of self GR'ing, divine lsf for gate, and- of course- the epics. It will even tank much better given divine power, lsf div gate, rapier wit, substantive dmg buffs, iof etc. I don't have neither Pharlan or the mentioned gear, so no. Well you can make a Rapier wit cleric, several people are interested on this. On other notes, the BG build rocks, and it is the first pure BG on forums . I've got a good help on polishing it
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 4:59:14 GMT
Any doubts I had on which is better overall, bg turner, or cleric turner, were erased tonight. We did a 4 man ness and I can honestly say that if I had a turner cleric rather than a turner bg, the run would have went much much smoother. Putting things in perspective- it IS only x1, and no GR means horrendous penalties in ness (the difference between an ac of 128 without girding and 113 without girding). It means trash spawn are only stunned and not consistently killed. So even at x1 in NESSUS, with only GR, even a x1 cleric can be very effective as a turner with only a 4 man party.
The other thing I am finding out in the "turner vs ploder" category is that the big + for ploder is that it simply insta-kills machines, whereas a turner can often merely damage a machine with turns, causing kb problems for the party. The big + for the turner is that even though it cannot effectively turn machines without sometimes causing party-kb problems, it neutralizes all of the trash in a spawn and kills most of it. That can mean a lot in a small party.
btw and off-topic, the cabana boys seem entirely overpowered until you have a very small party in a very difficult area and 80% of a very large spawn are machines.
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Post by fallenwizard on Mar 24, 2012 11:36:11 GMT
Any doubts I had on which is better overall, bg turner, or cleric turner, were erased tonight. We did a 4 man ness and I can honestly say that if I had a turner cleric rather than a turner bg, the run would have went much much smoother. Putting things in perspective- it IS only x1, and no GR means horrendous penalties in ness (the difference between an ac of 128 without girding and 113 without girding). It means trash spawn are only stunned and not consistently killed. So even at x1 in NESSUS, with only GR, even a x1 cleric can be very effective as a turner with only a 4 man party. The other thing I am finding out in the "turner vs ploder" category is that the big + for ploder is that it simply insta-kills machines, whereas a turner can often merely damage a machine with turns, causing kb problems for the party. The big + for the turner is that even though it cannot effectively turn machines without sometimes causing party-kb problems, it neutralizes all of the trash in a spawn and kills most of it. That can mean a lot in a small party. btw and off-topic, the cabana boys seem entirely overpowered until you have a very small party in a very difficult area and 80% of a very large spawn are machines. I'd be more than interested on seeing a log of the run to compare how things have changed with paragorn levels and summons from what it was back at lvl 60 cap - pre summons. ( highergroundpoa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=grouptime&action=display&thread=20359
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 14:21:24 GMT
I wish we had logged it and even more wished we had finished it- sorry if my post was misleading. We got split up in the maze and ended up with a huge spawn which was mostly machines: the lvl 80 super-tank and bard at one end of the maze and the sorc and my toon at the other, and all sorts of pf's and trash plus what seemed to be 20 machines between us. We did not wipe, but we all agreed that Nessus had us pretty much at a stalemate and that it was pointless to try and progress further.
What I learned as a player is that with a turner/tank, let the main tank draw the aggro and the turner act as a mage-guard (which it is proficient at) instead of the turner trying to help the main tank more quickly dispatch the PF's and Males- stunned spawn tends to 'wake up' when hit by area blast spells and attack the mage who cast them. Thats where and when the turner should be, to continue to stun and block awoken spawn. Not cool to look back and see your sorc getting chopped into repeatedly by a PF when you should be standing between the PF and the sorc.
I can only imagine the proficiency it took for you guys to actually complete Nessus at level 60, minus summons- it is that kind of skill we are aiming to hone through these kinds of adventures.
About summons- a fix would seem to be to mix up more party kb things into more spawn when a group is bigger. Just my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2012 18:26:26 GMT
Jean, "that phleg" I have been on dozens of runs with that toon and it is rarely kd. PF str check at 44, and my toons str at 39, statistically I would not be "immediately kd'd", in fact, I would not be often kd'd at all, and dex at 31 the odds are at worst 50/50 for the male dex check, again not "immediately kd'd". Congratson the stats on that run, I am sure it makes you feel better about something else you lack in life. Incidentally.
Just did a tia where I had 107 kills....I am happy about that. My toon is getting better and I am expressing joy in it.
Sorry if I am taking a little joy in meeting a relatively mediocre goal (surviving as a tanking turner bg), but I really am not trying to get in a pissing contest. Lets not get into a stupid inferiority complex driven bash fest. You are anal and I am easily provoked so lets just be friends like we are when not everyone is watching.
Feel free to provide constructive criticism though. All of that was pretty retarded of me, sorry.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 20:35:42 GMT
After much testing and playing, I am finding for the purposes of being 4/5 in tanking, turning and summoning, the blackguard is really the best. I have played both now, extensively. The blackguard is not subject to the same failed straight ability checks as cleric, and it stands up well from everything from males to pfs to maris to balors. In the end I rate it as
4/5 Tanking: saves very close to 100 means it very rarely fails any save check. AC over 130, high str and dex (compared to most turners) means it doesn't often fail straight ability checks, and ab at 106 for competent disarming, means it stand up well at the front line. Not 5 though because it is not a damage dealing tank by any means, and simply falls short of the really elite tanks on HG. Level 80 and a prince win and we'll see about that though so it is a work in progress.
4/5 Summoning. Can summon top-tier summons, but only twice per rest (once for the epic fiend and once for the greater undead).
5/5 Turning. Unless I am totally unable to pay attention due to rl, this competes for total kills with the best insta-kill classes on the server. A really good player driving a really good damage sorc will have double its kills though.
I have not played with any elite control-class cleric turners so take it with a grain of salt, but I have yet to be on a run with cc cleric turner where I do not beat it in kills by at least 30%. Granted: The cleric is getting tripped by kytons and subject to all kinds of tricks from trash, while trying to get that first turn off, pray and turn again. I'm not trying to steal kills but if we both do that first turn at the same time, I am usually turning again while he is praying or kd'd. As far as stunning....I am not so sure much of the server gets the idea that if an entire spawn is stunned, they should focus damage on one stunned creature at a time so as not to shock amnizu, pitfiends etc out of their stun to run ramped. Seeing all of the trash flushed out except for a few prostrate amnizu and winds/fumes (whatever) is pretty satisfying.
Additional benefits to this thing are its ability to buff other characters with a +13 gmw which is small but really with even a +10 weapon, that +13 puts them right at the +20 cap, divine inspiration is nice as well, though a poor substitute for bard song, it is better than nothing. And being able to cast mass conviction with a cha of 74 can mean the difference between people slagging or not. Plus break enchantment, lifes grace etc.
This build isn't the best thing ever, not by a very long stretch. This is not bragging it is just me expressing joy in something I've been working at for awhile.
I'll be posting it on the forums soon in the build section.
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Post by desocupado on Apr 23, 2012 23:55:41 GMT
I'm looking forward to it. The BG Tenebrous Fall - (Paladin 10/ Blackguard 30) Is quite interesting, but I'm finding the low dex to be really annoying. Also, the biggest nemesis of turners "Orthon" are really annoying, because they block my turning skills and unlike a cleric, I can't ruin Dominate them. How's your build coping with dex checks? What about disciple checks?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 7:32:36 GMT
I have to dig into the build, but dex checks are of course a pain in the butt. It doesn't fail every one, but it fails them much more than str checks. Not enough though to even take paragon stability feats or waste gear slots on it.
Discipline isn't a problem, have that maxed iirc. Its worst problem is he person playing it- sometimes way too much going on around me.
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