Bane Knight thoughts

[shomi]

Currently the bane knight class seems to be missing a few perks that would greatly increase quality of life.

The 1/4 STR mod to SP is a little weak, currently capping at 68 pen at 74 STR, which is just about unreachable without str artifact, demi x2, +16 item, and level 80 if you managed to be unlucky with your paragon level stats. 1/3 str mod would be a bit better capping at 70 SP at 70 STR (equal to a splash wiz/sorc with PSP). The next iteration would be 71 SP at 76 str, which IS unreachable without compromising the character.

Bigby 8 isnt worth casting most of the time still, since its damage is reduced by immunities and conceal, making melee be more effective in almost all cases. I suggest either make the entire damage packet vile, or remove the conceal damage reduction for Bane Knights only. I'm unsure which would actually be better.

Bigby 6 is capped at DC 120, which still isn't enough to KD most mobs uncursed. If I was reading the description right, a Bane Knight with 70+ STR and PSF evo should be reaching at least DC 140. This seems more like a bug/oversight than a design feature.

Minor Globe of invulnerability(level 5) is a bane knight spell but Globe of Invulnerability(level 7) is not. Wondering if that is intentional or not.

Banishment could use Evo focuses instead of abjuration to give bane knights some additional niche party utility. Wrack should also be switched to the assassin version for the same reason.

[Vichya]

The only spell I'm missing for Bane Knights is Power Word Kill. The Stun power word already is a BK spells, so why not PWK? It would give them some sort of useful spell, at least for Abyss. It would also be nice to have some Blackguard spells as BK spells, like FoM and Frost Weapon.

But the real problem is their low AB. With a BAB of 14 they miss 6 on many other tanks. Paragon levels take care of that of course, but future areas will most likely be balanced for average ABs, and not for rather lowish ones like Monks or Bane Knights.

[jeanhelixü]

Bane Knights can cast True Strike for +6 ab stacking beyond magic cap. Which makes up that bab difference nicely.

PWK really doesn't fit bane knight, they aren't insta killers they are damagers.

If you want to talk about low ab go look at staffmasters. They have a bab of 12 and do not benefit from True Strike even though it's labeled as a staffmaster spell.

[Raj]

Mar 9, 2012 16:02:18 GMT jeanhelixü said:

PWK really doesn't fit bane knight, they aren't insta killers they are damagers.

Their spell list is way too screwed atm to make such assumption

[Yojimbo]

Staffmasters can potential benefit from True Strike, though I'm confused on this spells particular mechanics. I know the normal NWN version of True Strike is a short duration +20 AB as part of the Magic Cap for HG I understand it to work like WM +AB and the two don't stack. I don't know what True Strike caps at or how it calculates it's +AB bonus to know when and how it can be effective.

[shardelay]

tensers fixes staffy ab. Staffmasters are not suffering in the melee department by a long shot.

[jeanhelixü]

Tensers only gives staffmasters fighter LBAB, not BAB. Pretty much every staffmaster build on the forum has 95 ab or less at level 60, which is quite low.

Also Bane Knights get Tensers, but they also get the benefit of True Strike.

True Strike does not benefit staffmasters even though it's a staffmaster spell because it gives +1 ab/10 CL implemented by using the weaponmaster bonus ab. As a 15 wiz/25wm build gets +7 weaponmaster ab, the +6 from the True Strike spell does not have any effect.

[Yojimbo]

True Strike should be upped to maybe CL/6 for a cap of +10 to make it really worth while given its fairly short duration even at full 60 CL. Where is the changes to True Strike documented I am not where I can look ingame but fairly certain it just shows the basic NWN description, only changing the duration piece and adding the QC list, and I was just looking at the forum docs and it just mentions the duration change.

[tomaan]

I only have 1 BK and he's stuck in Avernus, so take this post with a grain of salt.

That said, I'm going to ask a silly question: why not just take the Spell Pen feats? Or better yet, read the tome?

5 Spell pen feats (reg/geater/epic/legendary/para) = +10 Spell Pen

5 Gr Str feats = +1 Spell Pen.

So you give up -2 AB and damage to get +9 Spell Pen...seems like a no brainer to me. Or am I missing something?

As for spells, it seems like a BK should have a dedicated summon outside of it's BG levels -- kinda like an evil henchman or something.

[chirality]

While tweaking True Strike may have some value I'm more interested in the OP and new ways to improve BKs, not merely re-arranging their spell list to give them new options that may or may not really "fit" and make sense...Rajah although my assumption is you were joking, you do have a good point, which is that right now the spell list doesn't make much sense. However I agree with jean: adding something like PWK may add some much-desired utility and "something to do" but it doesn't feel right to me...also even with draughts what exactly is a BK gonna be killing with this spell, that someone else can't quicker and better? It doesn't seem as much of adding onto BK niche as much as, much like the Bigby spells, merely allowing them to kind of be good at (after much investment) something that a real caster is good at without sacrificing anything. PWS is on the spell list but not PWK and yeah that seems odd to me, but I guess disabling mobs fits in better with my perception of "what is a BK supposed to do?" than instaing them.

In particular I think the BK Str SP thing deserves more attention. I remember someone not too long ago (Tyran maybe?) noted here on the forums the math which shomi here repeats, which basically amounts to this: While that change was well-intended, I don't think it really helps much, if any, and certainly doesn't address the issue of having to consider far too many sacrifices and investments on a BK for an end result that isn't very impressive, especially in relation to the build choices that either real tanks, real casters, or even other quasis must make.

I kind of like the Banishment idea but to me this is also more of applying a band-aid and sucker when the gaping wound is the fact that BKs really don't offer anything that can't be done better and easier than other builds, and these builds can offer far more to boot. Rather than trying to continue "adding on" to the "niche" of a BK by plugging in stuff that is really just another trick, I think we should go back to square 1 and try to work out what exactly BKs are meant to do, what things they should be very good or better at, what things they shouldn't be able to do, what things they can kind of pull off with some luck and the right gear/circumstances. As it stands anyone making a BK is forced right off the bat to make some difficult build decisions; yeah that sounds great, it's the way it should be, until you realize that the benefit of these costs isn't tremendous, and even with the best gear and subrace you are still having to sacrifice a lot in order to be a good tank that can still land spells (for whatever good that does). Maybe it's lack of spending a lot of time with a BK but I am just not seeing what it is about BKs other than flavor, "I want to be different", and cool factor that keeps people wanting to play them.

I agree with Vichya's comments as far as BG spells go. It has been said before but I think it's sad to note that simple BG buffs are so much more valuable and useful than a bunch of BK-list arcane spells that BG is often preferred over BK in the first place, and not only that but...well, I would gladly toss away grabbies, stoneskin, Weird (yeah wonder how many BKs get a chance to land this ) even mass vamp touch to get full CL frost weap, FoM.

Is there a fear of making BKs overpowered or what?

[shardelay]

My staffmasters ab:


BAB 12
EAB 10
LAB 15
WF? 1
GWF? 1
EWF? 2
LWF? 2
EP & LWF? 1
Epic Prowess 1
WM bonus 7
size mod 0
CW 3
opportunist 0
oppor 2 0
Str mod 26
Wis Mod 0
Dex mod 0
Cha Mod 0
Buff 20
Buffed Total 101

(CW of 3 is not realistic, so its more like 100 with song/gear). This is pre-Paragons. post paragons it grows with the rest of the server.

This is a standard 25/15 wm/wiz build. Str uni 62/40 at double demi. thats w/out arti use.

Staff mastes ab is fine. I dont have a BK anymore, but they also get tensers. They are missing the WM ab bonus that a staffy gets, but i'd not make one as a uni - I'd make him pure str. I sketched up a version with 68 str in my build tool and I get:


Attack Bonus
BAB 13
EAB 10
LAB 15
WF? 1
GWF? 0
EWF? 2
LWF? 2
EP & LWF? 1
Epic Prowess 1
WM bonus 0
size mod 0
CW 3
opportunist 0
oppor 2 0
Str mod 29
Wis Mod 0
Dex mod 0
Cha Mod 0
Buff 20
Buffed Total 97

Once again, CW at 3 is aggerssive so more like 96. BK suffers vs staffy for ab and ends up like a mid tier ab class like a mnk or a good SD. This doesnt seem that low to me considering they are a quasi class.

I'm more concerned by the efficacy of their spells (if its poor). I havent played one in a LONG LONG time so i dont have a feel for how well they do as casters.

[jeanhelixü]

Your bane knight math is missing 1 from bab being 14 instead of 13, and 6 from true strike. Thus AB of 104.

[Yojimbo]

Here are some changes which could help BKs as they are now

1. STR SP changed to STR Mod/3 capped at +10 which would be equal to Paragon SP and is reached with a modified STR of 70.
2. General Caster change with potential to benefit BKs allow Blind Fighting feat to reduce conceal in calculations for Bigby 8 and possibly Orbs

[chirality]

I think casters are far too powerful as it is but the BF/listen for spell conceal makes sense to me and as far as the fact that this would benefit wizards more than anyone else, well so what? Sorc/pal splash is basically the cheesiest most powerful thing you can do and no one complains (yeah go ahead Funky do it, do it ). Sorcs are king, and in my opinion Polymathy is just the start of some much-needed wiz boost.

Err anyway, sorry, what I started off trying to say is that I don't think BKs should be running around casting Orbs.

Of course by the same token, you could add everything to the BK spell list and unless you want to try my weird build and drop all weapon feats for spell foci, it won't make much of a difference I think. Then again there are plenty of spells that will land regardless of foci so eh.

I think BKs need to be stronger in the melee department; their "job" of Bigby-ing stuff should be something they really are professionals at; and tweak the Str SP thing to be a bit more realistic. I don't think giving BKs better/more spells will be helpful in the long run because I'm fairly confident that something really broken would come out of it eventually and we'd be back at another nerf. A tank quasi should not be as good as a caster at casting, in my opinion, and maybe (the way I look at it) part of the problem here is that BKs are meant to be as good as casters with certain spells. Other than a handful of boss fights or random spawns I don't see Bigby's as being super useful, especially nowadays when you can just let the baddie beat on your summon. Raks? Ok, sure I'm not a deep Hell runner but I've fought my share of (non-paragon ) Raks and I don't see grabs as the ultimate disposal tool it once was held to be. Between Ruin, convert, mords, or getting owned by a 4k hp summon, who is wasting slots on grabs? Who is wasting a round of action on that? I think since I've been playing this game the only times I have seen grabs used are on Lolth and maybe once or twice on a Rak but of course it was a wasted action each time.

Weird? PWS? When are BKs really using this stuff? Why? Why would they? If you are doing a run and you are relying on your BK to Weird stuff, then good luck, because that means you don't have a real caster. If you did, then the question is why the hell is your caster not doing his job effectively, to the point that the BK is trying to Weird shit?

Finally, how many BKs are out there with some of these offensive spells on their lists anyway? How many sorc CC BKs are there? Who wants to pass up BG LL bonuses, plus better CL for BG buffs, just to get another level 9 spell for what? Pardon anyone who this applies to, but you're a douche if you're casting Weird with your BK. I'm a douche because I thought at one time that such a build would be worthwhile.

Anyway...if improving spellcasting ability is the saving grace of BKs...well I am not holding my breath to wait for this to work without either a) continually needing tweaking to be powerful enough to be worthwhile or b) leaving a gaping hole for some kind of exploit.

[Vichya]

Mar 9, 2012 16:02:18 GMT jeanhelixü said:

Bane Knights can cast True Strike for +6 ab stacking beyond magic cap. Which makes up that bab difference nicely.

PWK really doesn't fit bane knight, they aren't insta killers they are damagers.

I wasn't aware that True Strike bonus is not in the +20 magic cap. That's good to know. I think PWK fits in Bane Knight because they already have PWS and Premo (both divination spells).

Mar 9, 2012 16:35:09 GMT shardelay said:

tensers fixes staffy ab. Staffmasters are not suffering in the melee department by a long shot.

It's not Tenser's that fixes Staffmaster AB, it's the WM bonus which brings Staffmasters back to the same region as BAB 20 tanks.

Mar 9, 2012 17:00:48 GMT jeanhelixü said:

Tensers only gives staffmasters fighter LBAB, not BAB. Pretty much every staffmaster build on the forum has 95 ab or less at level 60, which is quite low.

Rain's staffmaster has 99 AB iirc, and my staffmaster had 100 at level 60, double demi.