|
Post by Shakua on Apr 7, 2012 22:22:48 GMT
staff monk starts with 120 ac with the amulet. conceal dont save you. Good ac saves you from being smashed by infliction Hes not making a good case by insulting me first, nor are you defending his actions to start , first. I have plenty of fun playing my builds Oh and not self proclaimation
|
|
|
Post by Test on Apr 7, 2012 22:39:41 GMT
I did ely last week with my bard as the only tank without SH. It did not make a difference. It as successful and I don't even think that we had 10 in the party. I don't get the point of this one Kusin given it is basically a 4 man run.
|
|
|
Post by Risen_Sorcerer on Apr 8, 2012 0:16:26 GMT
Sorry this is a bit off topic but Shakua any way you could post your staff monk build?
|
|
|
Post by Shakua on Apr 8, 2012 1:09:14 GMT
its in the monk section
|
|
|
Post by kusin111 on Apr 8, 2012 1:48:33 GMT
bard with under 132 ac w/o strongheart tanking fine at the one of the end runs in the game test
|
|
|
Post by kusin111 on Apr 8, 2012 1:52:53 GMT
And Shak, this argument is pointless. It's an opinion based topic. Your opinion of necessary differs from me and what I am assuming a very large quantity of players on the serve. Let's agree to disagree since this is going absolutely nowhere.
|
|
|
Post by Test on Apr 8, 2012 1:57:18 GMT
bard with under 132 ac w/o strongheart tanking fine at the one of the end runs in the game test The prime difficulty there would be that when 4 manning Ely the Bard is required to be the only tank. (Bard, Druid, Sorc & Shifter) If there are other good 4 man combinations Id love to hear about them.
|
|
|
Post by Shakua on Apr 8, 2012 2:10:46 GMT
bard with under 132 ac w/o strongheart tanking fine at the one of the end runs in the game test I am talking about classes that cannot hit 132 without the amulet and im not really going care about the bard that has tons of tricks normal tanks do not. Bard conceal is a bigger factor then your ac. And no, its not purely opinion. you need a certain amount of Ac to be a decent tank. ely and Nessus dont count as end game runs.
|
|
|
Post by kusin111 on Apr 8, 2012 2:25:55 GMT
So by saying its not an opinion, your saying that for a tank (for instance a staff monk) CANNOT be played at all in end game runs without a strong heart? I'm sorry I just can't comprehend how that makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by Shakua on Apr 8, 2012 2:29:08 GMT
I never said such a thing, learn to read. You need good ac for end game runs. Staff monk doing end game runs can get 135 + ac without the amulet, after double demi and 16 stats (build)
|
|
|
Post by kusin111 on Apr 8, 2012 2:43:40 GMT
Meh you obviously don't know what your saying. That or your ego is a bit higher than I thought. I'll be the mature person here and instead of attacking you telling you to "learn to read", I'll give up talking to such an ignorant woman.
|
|
|
Post by Shakua on Apr 8, 2012 2:58:35 GMT
So by saying its not an opinion, your saying that for a tank (for instance a staff monk) CANNOT be played at all in end game runs without a strong heart? I'm sorry I just can't comprehend how that makes sense. You said you dont comprehend. its because you didnt read, what I typed. I said nothing of the sorts what could be played in end game runs Im strictly talking about ac. Yep, im totaly the ignorant one, but hey if you had good tanks in your parties maybe you wouldnt limbo/wipe so much. Insert the Hey you suck thread! End of conversation.
|
|
|
Post by Vichya on Apr 8, 2012 6:16:15 GMT
This thread has become quite ridiculous. Is Strongheart a very very powerful item for strength tanks? Of course it is since it gives a 3 AC bonus on top of the immunities that strength tanks usually have. Is it mandatory for all tanks? Of course not, nobody was ever saying that.
Surviving enemy attacks is done by independant checks, concealment, AC, epic dodge and finally the damage is lowered by immunity, resistance and soak.
Does anyone remember the CoT double weapon tanks flooding the server a couple of years ago? They had no concealment (apart of displacement or shroud), no AC and still managed to tank effectively because they were very resistant to physical damage.
When Shakua and Mish are talking about strength tanks needing Strongheart they are obviously not talking about these kind of CoTs, nor are they talking about Staffmasters. Nor about Bards, who might not get very high AC, or very high concealment, or very high damage resistance but a good combination of these three.
So when does a Strongheart become too good not to use if you own one? At the point when taking less hits far outweighs any additional benefits you might get from another amulet. I think we can all agree that having 3 more AC means getting hit less (not true in all cases but let's not assume the enemy has less than 100 or more than 140 AB).
There are certain areas in the game where this is the case, usually when getting hit has some effect other than taking damage. Like getting instant killed, disabled or inflicted.
Even those old uber double weapon CoTs had problems tanking several Ichors or even Mammon's Tears at the same time because of the infliction. Other runs, particularly in Abyss, are full of infliction mobs, making playing soak tanks extremely painful. Why is it that you almost never see those double weapon CoTs there? Almost all Abyss runners reincarnated their CoTs to dex tanks because not getting hit is much much better than a bit more physical immunity in these areas.
For these ares the additional 3 AC *can* mean the difference between being able to tank reliably or having to heal/restore every couple of round. You should also keep in mind that Abyss runs are very often done with a less than full party because apparently the player population in general doesn't like them, so it's not that rare being the only tank on such a run.
It also would be nice if people would stop to laugh about wipes or limbos of other players. NWN was more mature when I started playing it online and I would really appreciate if Higher Ground remains that way. We all have wiped at some time, it hasn't been fun and was extremely disppointing. There's no need to remind people of it.
|
|
|
Post by millivanilli on Apr 8, 2012 10:55:21 GMT
It also would be nice if people would stop to laugh about wipes or limbos of other players. NWN was more mature when I started playing it online and I would really appreciate if Higher Ground remains that way. We all have wiped at some time, it hasn't been fun and was extremely disppointing. There's no need to remind people of it. Well said Vichya, particularly the last part
|
|
|
Post by desocupado on Apr 8, 2012 21:49:25 GMT
Well, AC makes a difference. And having more is always better. But it isn't as sensible as DC for casters. So I'd say both Shakua and Cata have a point.
AC=AB+14 (or even 5 less points than that with decent conceal/immunity) is reasonable for tanking, but having 20 points over mobs AB is much more effective. How much AC is required for each area varies both to enemy AB and party buffs/debuffs. Also Paragon/Superior enemies change this equation sometimes.
I wouldn't mind seeing a BUR version of strong heart with +18/+19 natural AC, for the sake of variety. But I never really weighted the alternatives to Strongheart, can you list which amulets you use instead Cata?
|
|