The Agile Beast (35 Rog/4 CoT/1 Rng)

[Yojimbo]

I wanted a solid rogue when it came to searching, disabling traps, and opening locks but I wanted to be a worthwhile tank. So I figured a Uni Rogue with some tank levels splashed in and here it is.

Base Race: Half-Elf
Sub-race: Wemic
STR: +4
DEX: +6
CON: +2
WIS: +2
CHA: -4
Free Feats: Weapon Finesse, Called Shot, ESF Hide/Taunt/Listen

Starting Stats:

Level 1

Rogue (1)

STR: 14 (18) DEX: 16 (22) CON: 12 (14) WIS: 8 (10) INT: 16 CHA: 8 (4)

Bullheaded

Pre-Epic:

Level 2	Rogue (2)
Level 3	Rogue (3)		WF: Morningstar
Level 4	Rogue (4)	DEX +1 (23)
Level 5	Rogue (5)
Level 6	Rogue (6)		Iron Will
Level 7	Rogue (7)
Level 8	Rogue (8)	DEX +1 (24)
Level 9	Rogue (9)		Great Fortitude
Level 10	Rogue (10)		Skill Mastery
Level 11	Rogue (11)
Level 12	Rogue (12)	DEX +1 (25)	SF: Disable Trap
Level 13	Rogue (13)		Opportunist
Level 14	Rogue (14)
Level 15	Rogue (15)		GWF: Morningstar
Level 16	Rogue (16)	DEX +1 (26)	Crippling Strike
Level 17	Champion of Torm (1)
Level 18	Champion of Torm (2)		Toughness Blind Fight
Level 19	Champion of Torm (3)
Level 20	Champion of Torm (4)	DEX +1 (27)	IC: Morningstar

Epic:

Level 21	Rogue (17)		Armor Skin
Level 22	Rogue (18)
Level 23	Rogue (19)		Slippery Mind
Level 24	Rogue (20)	DEX +1 (28)	EWF: Morningstar
Level 25	Rogue (21)
Level 26	Rogue (22)
Level 27	Rogue (23)		ESF: Search
Level 28	Rogue (24)	DEX +1 (29)	Improved Evasion
Level 29	Rogue (25)
Level 30	Rogue (26)		Great Strength I (19)
Level 31	Rogue (27)
Level 32	Rogue (28)	DEX +1 (30)	Defensive Roll
Level 33	Rogue (29)		Great Strength II (20)
Level 34	Rogue (30)
Level 35	Rogue (31)
Level 36	Rogue (32)	DEX +1 (31)	Great Strength III (21) Epic Dodge
Level 37	Rogue (33)
Level 38	Rogue (34)
Level 39	Rogue (35)		Great Strength IV (22)
Level 40	Ranger (1)	DEX +1 (32)	Epic Prowess

Legendary:

Level 41	Rogue (36)
Level 42	Rogue (37)	DEX +1 (33)	LSA: Discipline
Level 43	Rogue (38)
Level 44	Rogue (39)	DEX +1 (34)
Level 45	Rogue (40)		Legendary Will
Level 46	Rogue (41)	DEX +1 (36)
Level 47	Rogue (42)
Level 48	Rogue (43)	DEX +1 (37)	Legendary Fortitude
Level 49	Rogue (44)
Level 50	Rogue (45)	DEX +1 (39)
Level 51	Rogue (46)		LWF: Morningstar
Level 52	Rogue (47)	DEX +1 (40)
Level 53	Rogue (48)
Level 54	Rogue (49)	DEX +1 (41)	Great Strength V (23)
Level 55	Rogue (50)
Level 56	Rogue (51)	DEX +1 (43)
Level 57	Rogue (52)		Great Strength VI (24)
Level 58	Rogue (53)	DEX +1 (44)
Level 59	Rogue (54)
Level 60	Rogue (55)	DEX +1 (46)	Epic Will

Final Stats:

STR: 24 DEX: 46 CON: 14 WIS: 10 INT: 16 CHA: 4

Appraise: 63 Concentration: 29 Craft Armor: 63 Craft Weapon: 63 Disable Trap: 63 Discipline: 63 Hide: 63 Listen: 63 Open Lock: 63 Parry: 63 Pick Pocket: 42 Search: 63 Set Trap: 5 Tumble: 60 UMD: 19

AB: 94

AC: 133

Fortitude: 61 Reflex: 73 Will: 61

[Yojimbo]

What Arti would be best on this guy? Currently these are the ones I am debating between are STR, CON, Saves, & Speed Artis but thats not to say I have all of them sitting around ready to be used so don't let that effect your opinions.

[Yojimbo]

Updated lowered STR by 2 to pick up Epic Dodge.

[the1kobra]

Some suggestions:

1: Do you think it would be a good idea to drop SF: Listen, take exotic weapon proficiency, and then make your weapon of choice the bastard sword? It's slashing instead of bludge/pierce, which is worse, I know. But it's got 19-20X3 crits and with opportunist/crippler, that can reach 14-20X3.5 crits, which aren't too shabby. They're also dual wieldable, if you want to do that.

2: Do you think it would be a good idea to swap out 4 self-conceals with Great Dex? Gives you 2 more AB/AC... I'm not sure how the numbers add up but the AB listed might be a little on the low side, plus you can get conceal from disp/camo, not as good and it's dispellable,.. but I think it's something to consider.

[Torin]

I would consider splashing 4 Fighter + 1 Paladin instead of 4 CoT/1 Rng
=> Better saves, and take Weapon Spez. + Exp. Weapon (+ the other weapon spez in higher levels)

Listen AND Blindfight is ihmo not the best. With max. Listen, Blindfight is not much needed.

[the1kobra]

Sept 5, 2012 15:43:39 GMT Torin said:

I would consider splashing 4 Fighter + 1 Paladin instead of 4 CoT/1 Rng
=> Better saves, and take Weapon Spez. + Exp. Weapon (+ the other weapon spez in higher levels)

Keep in mind this is a Wemic, favored classes of Ranger and Barbarian. Going 35/4/1 Rog/Fighter/Pal would result in a 40% XP penalty. You might be able to make it manageable going 35/4/1 Rogue/CoT/Paladin, 20% XP Penalty. Another option is to go 36/2/2 Rogue/CoT/BG, +1 Rogue feat, 1 CoT feat, and the CHA saves from BG. This DOES however, require a feat investment into power attack and cleave, otherwise wasted feats.

If you didn't mind the XP penalty though, the build might be best served going 35/4/1 Rogue/Fighter or PAL/Monk, and go for dual wielding bastard swords. 40% XP Penalty hurts though.

Listen AND Blindfight is ihmo not the best. With max. Listen, Blindfight is not much needed.

Blind fight is still useful in case you get deafened (so you don't lose conceal penetration) and blinded (so you don't get hosed defensively)

[Yojimbo]

Thanks for the input and the AB is reasonable in my book and the AB number only uses +12 Gear and +1 from CW odds are you can expect to have 2 more AB in most end game runs. I have also gotten this Demi using the old build and have yet to reinc as I'm trying to figure out what if anything can be done with all my upgraded picks. I liked the MS and is a qualifying weapon for the Crippling Strike and Opportunist feats and I like the split damage type I think it balances out the lost damage from crits. I know a lot of things to make changes on it and what is posted is not going to change much but the changes mentioned are good for anyone wanting to tweak the build. I chose the classes to avoid exp penalties and get bonus feats. I would like a saves class but saves are decent enough and w/ PLs I will pick up some more save feats.

[Raj]

94(96) ab is a bit low for a bur race, but more important this thing has no dmg at all (no sneaks, low strmod, no specialization, no extra attacks); I don't understand how 20 str would qualify it for being uni either(after demi, in hells and vs p0?), and 54 fort is definitely too low, even if you choose con arti.

[arek]

Yojimbo, I hate to say it but you're probably better off as a Pure rogue on Wemic. If you must both go non-pure and stay Wemic, then I recommend using BG instead of CoT. Yes, this nets you 5 fewer feats (3 from ftr, PA/Cleave), but then you also get your CHA bonus to saves, which saves you feats, and can also take Divine Might if you take your 3rd or 4th BG level on a feat level, which nets you some extra damage.

Raj, 20 base STR == 34@60, 38@65+1xD, and effectively as much as 46 with the asmo belt at L80 and 2x, not counting paragon feats. I've found that 34 is "enough" in most situations if you have UUU and play smartly around PFs, and once you get Demi, you're good enough to tank most PFs with the asmo belt and UUU around paragons (superiors/elites will give you trouble).

--Arek

[Yojimbo]

The STR was higher initially also through edits to improve tanking some STR was sacrificed. Arek does also point out that for Hell 20 STR will pass most STR checks. I have played a Pure melee and ranged rogue and found the melee misses out on sneaks because it becomes the target too often and ranged you have to be within a certain range and once there you are often a target. This toon has higher AB than either of those got and they had more DEX and less STR in the end it does more damage than either of the others did. The other bit on Paladin & BG is if you notice my CHA is 4 so with I need 6 bonus stat points to get out of the negatives meaning +12 gear is only +3 saves and if I drop my save feats to cover other feats lost or required I am looking at a net lose to saves from current.

The biggest restriction I have on the build though is I need to stay 35 or more Rogue levels. I also like the MS and want to stick with it which means either STR based medium sized or DEX or STR based large sized. I find STR based much tougher to do if you want to get DEX and INT high enough to easily preform duties w/o ESF on all the necessary skills. The other issue with STR is having to change out armor due to skill penalties for preforming duties. I don't like or see much benefit to STR based though it is not entirely out of the question.

[Raj]

Well, with lvl 80s, +16 items, asmo belt and UUU against pfs almost everything can be called uni.

My point is that investing 2 great strenght feats into secondary stat is wasted if you're screwed without uuu/limited in arti choice/low level. Just reinc after 2x if that makes you feel safer, without sacrificing too much ab and feats (esf are overkill, can move to sf, giving up bf and toughness; self conceal feats are a waste as well).

Anyway, even with 4-5 more points of ab this thing is not going to deal decent damage; I think you're overstimating the splash for a 4th attack at -15 ab, when you're not receiving dmg from str/pws/dm and give up full sneaks.

[arek]

Raj has a point here, the 2 feats in STR are a bit of a waste, and you could further drop 2 STR at creation without losing your ability to reliably handle kytons/erinyes. Putting the 2 STR into CHA at creation brings your CHA bonus up to +4 at 60/+12. From there, you get +1 with a +14 CHA item, +1 for each Demigod iteration, +1 for Level 80, and yet another +1 for replacing +14 CHA with +16 (probably with a Wrap of the Dark Prince).

Another option would be for you to go STR based using Pharlan or maybe even Undying instead of Wemic. You'll only need 14 DEX at the end that way to make use of medium armor, tho you might want more so that you can save on feats. Going Pharlan also means that you can go Paladin instead of Blackguard (saving you feats), and skip the Ranger level entirely (recommended), so you end up with 35-36 rogue and 4-5 paladin levels. Ofc, neither of those qualify as a "beast", so if you want to keep that theme you could look at Salamander or Hound Archon as well for a STR build. :-)

--Arek

[the1kobra]

If I recall, I once saw someone with a wemic rogue that dual wielded bastard swords. Since they're light weapons they get the crippler/opportunist benefits. They get 18d6 sneaks minimum and 14-20X3.5 Crits. It's a bit weak against crit immune and sneak immune stuff, but that's normal for a splash rogue. Could always pull out some chucks in a pinch. Anyways, the exact class combo eludes me but it was something along the lines of 35/4/1 Rogue/BABFull/Monk, and with the monk level it could dual wield safely. If you have starting stats of:
14(18)/14(20)/14(16)/14/14(16)/8(4)

You should have pretty solid defense with the monk AC dual wielding, and you can always pull out a shield if you need a jump in AC. AB might be a bit lowish but you'll have 7 attacks and the offhands are at high iterations. Also gets you 3 attacks in the first flurry.

The one major downside is this combo WILL result in an XP penalty, 20% minimum. It goes to 40% if you use fighter or paladin. You can manage with CoT but it's 1 feat down compared to fighter and no saves or spells in comparison to paladin. With a CHA of 4 the benefits of paladin are debatable anyways but the monk with dual bastard sword option is something to consider, I think.

[Yojimbo]

Just a note for those making suggestions Opportunist and Crippling Strike only work in Light Armor and do not stack with OC/DC or the WM equivalent feature. I may change those 2 STR to DEX as -1 to STR checks and -1 Damage is negligible and DEX would be better feat investment. While at 1x Demi the ESF feats will be somewhat redundant/overkill they can offset penalties since I still get some penalties. I have thought about going with an Undying STR based but since a STR based will not likely be in light armor it renders Opportunist and Crippling Strike as useless feats. Also unsure how to spend Epic Rogue feats as outside of ESF for rogue skills not a lot of options as it won't have the DEX for most the others. An Undying STR does open the option for OC/DC w/ BG & Fighter splashes. But it will need a new name then as I said my primary criteria personally are MS & 35 or more Rogue levels.

[greven]

I couldn't agree with Raj more; many alternatives exist which would increase contribution to a party's offense significantly, with a negligible impact on defense (or even no impact on defense).