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Post by Yojimbo on Jun 16, 2012 19:35:24 GMT
Just a note as someone playing a CHA Pally pseudo bard song is garbage at least so far by level 50 may change opinion when I get up to L60.
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Post by tomaan on Jun 17, 2012 5:33:32 GMT
Ah, afk. So, I don't really care about great smite, other than that seems to be the thing to do for paladins (especially with one that gets Extra Smiting for free). It does seem awfully tight on feats (and ability points) to go this route. I would like to be a sturdy tank that dishes out some damage (go figure). I just figured this was the best way to go. I'll hold off on building this guy until I here you out, because I'd like to know. But I need to build this guy by tomorrow, so hopefully we can chat before my scheduled session with the newbies. Otherwise, I'll just go with this. - Niilo I did some testing awhile back and determined that, by omitting Greater Smite, I could increase my AB by 3-4 points and fill in those meta-magic/spell focus feats I'd been thinking about. The cost, however, was a significant hit to damage output -- not only from losing an aoe attack, but also from lost divine might damage (I found myself less willing to commit points to charisma since I didn't "have" to). I have a dexer pally that just hit x1 demi -- he uses Great Smite and compares to some of my str tanks in terms of damage output....the only ones who regularly beat him are the high dps builds like Barby and COT. That said, it's not a deal-breaker or a build-maker -- there are a LOT of ways to skin a cat on HG, so feel free to experiment and come up with something that works for you.
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Post by vorshlumpf on Jun 17, 2012 6:10:04 GMT
Thanks, all. I'm looking more at a Uni tank build now - though I have no experience with the concept. I mainly want to be able to tank foes while the caster cleric and sorcerer at my back blow everyone away, and the Dex ranger CS'es anyone he can. I'm re-working things and might come back with the need for some more feedback.
One thing I've noticed, I think, is that there aren't many feats to choose from when taking the paladin bonus epic feats. It looks like I have to definitely take OC/DC with those bonus feats, and then I'll be forced to take an Epic Toughness as my last bonus. But maybe I'm missing something.
- Niilo
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Post by buddhamind on Jun 17, 2012 14:27:20 GMT
I dropped great smite on my current UR subrace paladin, for what it's worth. Not that it wasn't fun to use, but I just couldn't squeeze in the Charisma requirement and still get my other abilities to what I wanted.
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Post by vorshlumpf on Jun 19, 2012 19:23:16 GMT
Okay, after some research into uni-tank considerations, I've come up with a possible build. I haven't run it through the test chamber, yet. Maybe I'll have time to do that tonight. I've posted the complete level progression on the original post, but here is the summary. | At Creation | With Subrace Edits | At Level 60 | STR | 12 | 15 | 40 | DEX | 14 | 14 | 18 | CON | 14 | 14 | 14 | INT | 12 | 12 | 12 | WIS | 14 | 14 | 15 | CHA | 12 | 14 | 18 |
Skills ====== Conc 30 CrA 18 CrW 18 Disc 63 Parry 63 Tumb 60 I think my chances of getting persistant +22 to CrA and CrW (to reach 40 in each) are better than my chances of getting +44 CrA (to reach 80). But that's just a guess since I have no actual experience tanking above level 40. Feats ===== 1 Blooded 1 Weapon Proficiency (exotic) 3 Weapon Focus (bastard sword) 6 Power Attack 9 Blind-Fight 12 Improved Critical (bastard sword) 15 Cleave 18 Great Cleave 21 Metamagic (Extend Spell) 23 Armor Skin [Paladin bonus feat] 24 Great Strength I 26 Epic Weapon Focus (bastard sword) [Paladin bonus feat] 27 Great Strength II 29 Epic Prowess [Paladin bonus feat] 30 Divine Shield 32 Overwhelming Critical (bastard sword) [Paladin bonus feat] 33 Great Strength III 35 Devastating Critical (bastard sword) [Paladin bonus feat] 36 Great Strength IV 38 Epic Toughness [Paladin bonus feat] 39 Great Strength V 42 Legendary Skill Affinity (Tumble) 45 Great Strength VI 48 Epic Prowess 51 Epic Weapon Focus (bastard sword) 54 Legendary Weapon Focus (bastard sword) 57 ?Legendary Spell Focus (Enchantment)? 60 ?Divine Might? Those last two feats are questionable. This character will be permanently partnered with a caster cleric (my wife), so if she goes the Ench or Tran route, then LSF would be a waste for this guy. The Divine Might was because I couldn't think of anything better. Three possible alternatives for feats: 1) Replace the last two feats with Great <stat> feats. Maybe 2 more Dex? 2) Ignore the OC/DC tree. This would allow me to shuffle my feats to get 4 more Epic+ feats. However, two of those would have to be used on Epic Toughness (due to limited selection for Paladin bonus feats). As with #1, I could get 2 more points in a stat. 3) Both 1 and 2, and get 4 more points in stats.
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Post by chirality on Jun 20, 2012 2:17:55 GMT
Hmm I did forget about epic bonus feat list limitations, also sorry I have yet to get back to you on this...
Yeah this illustrates yet another reason why pure pally is kind of hurting without the right race to really make an over-all nice build incorporating smiting, I think for BURs it's a given, for lower tiers it's a huge headache, and part of this is due to crappy epic bonus feat list (not sure why it never got an improvement in HG like the lists of many other classes). Without Smiting or turning you're kind of stuck with crap and if you further try to ditch OC/DC you are REALLY left with crap...
Epic Toughness does pretty much suck so I guess I would definitely go with OC/DC, after you were open to shifting from warhammer to bsword this becomes more attractive to me to capitalize on bsword stats.
I would really not bother at all with LSF, as Vichya pointed out earlier one of the benefits of going pure is getting +15 anyway. +16 is really more about penetrating soak than getting +1 more AB and you likely won't have to worry much, if ever with that toon, about +16 soak (if I understand my mobs correctly anyway).
Shield is nice and as I said when we talked about it, although it's a double-edged sword I would consider it to weigh in more heavily on the pro side than the con side in hardcore, however although I believe I was advising you against Shield in favor of Might I think now in fact I would reverse that especially given a slightly more damage-focused build now, though that phys will still be ineffectual against many mobs especially the classic "I take bludgeon" Hells critters but eh who cares about that eh, may as well capitalize on what you can and plenty of stuff takes slashing, it's certainly fine for LLs. So in a roundabout fashion what I'm getting at is probably take Might after all over Shield and just take the 2 attribute points over LSF/Divine feat.
Also option of maybe grabbing another random epic/LL feat but can't think of any off the top of my head which would be worth it, will think some more on this though.
Finally--eh? What's up with your post-subbie starting stats? Was baseborn changed recently? Cause I remember +5 Str +2 Cha, not +3 Str.
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Post by vorshlumpf on Jun 20, 2012 3:03:57 GMT
Cool, a typo in my favour! Thanks for pointing it out. I'll correct it in the first post. That means I can have STR 40 by level 52, instead of 60. Much better! Yes, I forgot about what Vichya said. Again, thanks for pointing that out. Screw LSF:Ench So, replace Divine Shield with Divine Might. Gotcha. And what two stat points should I grab for those last two feats? DEX? Or more STR? There is a thread where it says a STR tank should have at least 18 DEX, which I have now. So I'll assume two more Gr STR feats, pending further advice. Yeah, I realized the limitations of going pure when figuring things out. However, I want to experience a pure pally, just like I want to experience pure clerics, wizards, sorcs, rangers etc. By the time I get a BUR appropriate for paladins (in 3-5 years ), I can make a better one. Thanks for the feedback!
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Post by chirality on Jun 20, 2012 5:10:41 GMT
I would take 2 more Dex because: 1) I'm pretty sure the recommended base stats floating around are assuming normal mode and, thus, probably at least Demi x1, if not x2; this means at least +2 over what your toon could realistically hope for, and +4 if double demi, and even moreso the "basic" kit gear for tanks with asmo tag, by this I mean asmo artis and +16 gear which you will likely not be getting any time soon (14s will definitely be easy enough to get by the time you can use them so still better than the old +12, yay thanks devs! ). That said, "requirements" for uni or even "quasi-uni" status in normal mode are obviously a bit higher due to significant differences in what you'd be up against. You won't be rolling around with high-demi parties, or even any demi count at all, so the only paragons you'll see would be in Hades or...not sure but I believe it is possible to get them in Hell with 0 demi count, extremely unlikely though, either way though there won't be any elites, also you won't be worrying about tanking in Abyss where--as was mentioned either here or in your other thread, can't remember--ability checks (and moreso, uni status) is a far different (and more difficult game) than other areas, even Hells. I will cut it "short" at that and basically what I'm saying is you won't be able to make a true perfect uni tank, but by the same token you won't have to deal with more than basic mob checks, so this cuts both ways. The point here is that you won't be able to get it perfect but every little bit helps so just my opinion but I would still do another +2 for the Dex checks, it still won't be perfect but it will be better. 2) The other reason is that I don't think another +1 AB/phys damage will help overmuch due to not having to deal with extreme ACs very much, I believe your misses when they come will be mainly due to conceal than anything else but there's not much (other than BF which you have) you can do to mitigate that with the tools at your disposal and as a non-half-elf-non-Listen-class-skill-Str-tank. The phys would naturally be a nice little perk but you will have Might to give a boost in that department (and don't worry, even without insanely high Cha as a pure pally it will last long enough that later on--and not even really that late--you should easily be able to keep it on virtually constantly in between rests, even assuming re-buff needs after dying). Another option could be +2 Con for more hp I guess, which would capitalize a bit more on the Epic Toughness you're basically forced to take, but you'd hardly need the +1 Fort so meh. Since you're going for a bit of uni-ness I would suggest dropping the feats on yet another 2 points for your Dex checks but eh, in the end it's up to you and maybe others have a better idea. Keep in mind ability checks are the score itself not the mod. Also +1 ref would definitely be more useful than Fort--although saves shouldn't be a problem for you, improving one of the low saves can never hurt (of course evasion would be nice to really make it count ).
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Post by vorshlumpf on Jun 20, 2012 19:00:53 GMT
Okay, that's the feedback I needed. Thanks!
Sara's pretty excited about her caster cleric (party buffs be damned, she wants to nuke stuff!) so hopefully this paladin build will be fully tested in the near future.
- Niilo
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Post by vorshlumpf on Jun 24, 2012 20:47:53 GMT
Turns out I had a couple of duplicate feats in my list Yay for the test chamber! So I have two extras to spend. I'm thinking I can take two more stat points, or take Divine Shield and Power Critical. Does either option sound like it is definitely more desirable? STR and DEX are currently 42 and 20, respectively (at level 60 with no buffs). I've also shuffled around the feats so that I can get STR 40 two levels sooner. - Niilo
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Post by chirality on Jun 24, 2012 21:06:06 GMT
2 more Str or Dex for sure, Dex for more uni per my earlier reasoning
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Post by chirality on Jun 25, 2012 1:26:35 GMT
Well Divine Shield would be nice to fit in as well but I don't think Power Crit would be worth it, so unless there is something else to fill the other slot I would still do an even +2 to attributes.
;D
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Post by vorshlumpf on Jun 25, 2012 7:12:46 GMT
Yojimbo's trying to help me figure out how to make use of that last bonus feat. If there's some way to get one of my other feats in that slot, then I can take +2 Dex and divine shield.
I looked through the complete list of feats (in the test chamber), and the best feat I could see in it was Power Critical.
Thanks for the continued feedback.
- Niilo
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Post by Yojimbo on Jun 25, 2012 22:45:19 GMT
Yeah besides Greater Smiting, which is only good for smiters, only 5 feats really of use to the class and 6 feats are allowed. Maybe take Epic Reputation and in Paragon levels dump points into Persuade or Taunt I forget what Taunt does in HG but Persuade can lower SR and IIRC stacks with other SR reductions. Im somewhat surprised Great Charisma isn't even an option with some shuffling I suspect you could fit in 2x Great Charisma which would have more benefit if it were a bonus feat for Paladin that is.
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