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Post by kaezar on Mar 12, 2014 1:27:30 GMT
That is incorrect. Taking rogue at level 20 means that you get 7 bonus feats in epic levels. Oh, right, my apologies, did not think of this trick. It is a pretty standard choice for loot mages. You choose if you rather have 3 school at legendary, 2 at epic, 3 metas and almost all skills, or 4 schools at legendary, 2 at epic, 2 metas and only the necessary skills. Both ways can have the wizard skills (lore, concentration and craft armor) maxed, as well as the cross class discipline. The necessary search, open locks and disable device skills, as well as tumble and parry maxed to 63. But by taking rogue level at 40, you reduce costs of those skills a lot, which means things like appraise, set/craft traps, listen, bluff, persuade and pick pocket can be taken. I am not sure, but I think I used to have 4 of those maxed when I took the rogue level at 40 before I reincarnated. It is a choice. A soloer probably would do best by going the skill way, setting traps alone allows one to solo runs that would be impossible for another wizard, and pick pockets helps a lot on some boss fights. A team player would probably preffer the spell school way. As for the carrot thing, I think it would be cool. I have 2 wizards at PL (and 1 arcane theurge, but I don't count it for this) and both are splash. There is no compeling reason to go pure while going splash gives some use for the skill points and allows some other options for wizards. 1 sp is cool and all, but given the structure of sr atm, it is not really important. Most hard critters, if they are NB'd, are easy. If not, they are almost impossible. Unlike a sorcerer, a wizard doesn't have the sheer number of casts to keep trying to cast at a critter he needs to roll 15+ on penetration to hit. If it is 14+, the same situation still applies. I fact, I feel more strongly the lack of 1 CL to Ethereal Visage/Tenser than the lack of 1 sp. And there are ways around that. The 1 free specialization for wizards fits the class (the long years of single minded devotion and studies gives the pure wizard an exceptional knowledge of one school) but seems a bit meh, specially if compared to the free channeling, on one side, or the splash potential, on the other. I have been thinking of ideas for a good long time, but haven't had any I really liked. I can put them here if Funky thinks they'd be useful - who knows, they can give something a good idea. Take care Kaezar
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 12, 2014 2:17:41 GMT
I'm open to seeing any ideas, as they're generally always useful. I think, though, that the issue of wiz-specialist balancing is separate from wiz-sorc balancing, though there are some points of similarity. For sorc-wiz balancing, I fully expect the pendulum to have swung back before the final PL area drops (perhaps WELL before, depending on how hard we work on it). Specialists, I think, need some additional carrot, though I'm still undecided as to what. I'm wary of many of the ideas suggested, but have no better ones.
Then there's the question of pure/splash balancing. I also think pures lose to splashes right now, both with wiz and sorc. For sorcs, I anticipate that PL areas will rectify that on their own. For wizards, though, I think it's partly due to an underlying imbalance with skill points from high INT. I've long toyed with the notion of capping the max skill points per level handed out, but it's not a very popular notion with anyone else, and I don't think it'd fully solve the pure/splash balancing issues anyway, so I won't elaborate on the game design reasons I like the notion. Not sure what else might work.
Additional slots for wiz specialists might be one way to go, for the specialist/non balancing...hmm.
Funky
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Post by jeanhelixü on Mar 12, 2014 2:44:10 GMT
The problem with specialist wizards is that the whole point of a wizard over a sorc is the breadth of spells you can cast. By giving up two schools you heavily compromise that ability.
I think that 2 schools barred for 1 school specialized is outdated and originally was balanced because there were less spells that were useful. Long long ago it was okay to give up conjuration and enchanting as these largely had no useful purpose. With the buffing of evards and the adding of orbs conjuration became useful so the next best option was giving up divination and doing without premonition. With the addition of abyss making PWK so powerful you could no longer give up divination and be very effective in the abyss.
Your only other options give up even more critical spells: Illusion (weird, EV), Abjuration (endure elements, mord, mind blank, energy buffer, elemental immunity), Necromancy (death magic, energy drain, enervate, wrack), Evocation (all the best aoe damage spells), Transmutation (Disintegrate, Reverse Gravity, Flensing).
Even enchanting which is my go to school to drop has a few spells people find useful such as mind fog. I mean giving up divination and enchanting is still reasonably okay, but the benefit doesn't really give much to the cost. Before Reverse Gravity and Flensing I know a lot of people thought of giving up transmutation as it effectively just gave disintegrate, but even then I thought disintegrate useful enough by itself to keep the whole school, now it's very much not an option to drop.
As it is there aren't 2 schools you can easily give up and still be effective everywhere, which is the main selling point of a wizard in the first place. It being reduced to one barred for one specialization school would go a long way to making it worthwhile.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 12, 2014 2:47:30 GMT
A corollary to that is that we need to do a better job on school-vs-school balancing, which is even trickier than the sorc-wiz balancing, which only requires there be enough 'useful' spells at a given level to force sorcs to make choices (spell level balancing).
Funky
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Post by jeanhelixü on Mar 12, 2014 2:51:36 GMT
I'm not sure I follow. My point is that schools are now balanced enough that giving up 2 schools is too harsh a penalty to take and still be very effective everywhere.
Before schools were unbalanced enough that I could drop 3 schools (conj, ench, div) and still be fine.
I feel like specialization is kind of like some strange hybrid between sorc (more strength in raw power) and wizard (more versatility) with too much of the downsides of each and not enough of the advantages.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 12, 2014 5:33:25 GMT
My point was that, even if we get specialization to the point where its viable, we also need to ensure that various kinds of specializations are viable. That will be very hard to do, in some cases, as its difficult to imagine a wizard going without EV, for example. Yes, schools are better-balanced than they were, but they're still not where they should ideally be - not even close.
As to your feeling about specialization having too many of the downsides of both, I think that's an incomplete comparison. I agree they share relatively little boost, at present, and I further agree that they have comparable downsides (or worse) to sorcs in spell selection, in sheer terms of the amount of limitation. As time goes on, however, that latter half of the comparison will shift, as sorc spell selection is more constraining in comparative terms, so it's not a terribly useful way to look at it.
I think it's simpler to just say that they need either fewer restrictions or more benefits. Given that their restrictions are likely to chafe more as time goes on, my inclination is to pick a bonus that will scale accordingly, if possible. I do NOT really like the notion of only having one restricted school, as that seriously restricts the chances for any diversity among specialists. It's far too easy for the playerbase to settle on a preconceived notion of the worst school, and for things to fall into a rut even deeper than the facts warranting that preconceived notion warrant.
My inclination, then, is to pick some benefit, and one that will scale (softly) upwards as spell edits and area design make more spells useful in paragon areas. My one suggestion thus far, additional slots somewhere between a normal wiz allotment and the sorc bonus allotment, has some appeal, as it fits with the baseline specialist design (bonus spell), and it plays to what is about to become a fairly valuable commodity again (spell slots), but it doesn't really link meaningfully to spell usefulness, directly or inversely. It MIGHT scale roughly with paragon levels, though, if the % sorc boost model were used...
Funky
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Post by Retribution on Mar 12, 2014 7:23:35 GMT
I also think pures lose to splashes right now, both with wiz and sorc. For sorcs, I anticipate that PL areas will rectify that on their own. I actually can't recall seeing a splash sorc on any hell/abyss/abo/ely run in the past 6 months. Granted I run mostly with vets, but in end game circles splashing on sorc is not even considered an option. It's not really relevant to the point being discussed (sorc vs wiz), but we might as well be realistic about the current state of play. EDIT: Add to this there was probably an average of 1.5 sorcs per run, compared to about 0.25 wizards, and the sorcs were from a large set of players, so the sample size is reasonable.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 12, 2014 8:00:55 GMT
Yup, sorry, I had the wording backwards on that one. I think pures are currently dominant. For sorcs, it's due in part to devaluation of the defensive save bonuses of the splash that came with paragon levels, along with the more generally applicable increased kill rates which tend to obviate defense. I think both of those things will be rectified by PLs. For wizards, I think the reasons are a little more complex, though rogue splash is (I think currently) still viable. Sorry for the confusion. It's late here, and I'm still at work.
Funky
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Post by jeanhelixü on Mar 12, 2014 8:07:59 GMT
The only wizards I see are rogue splash wizards. In the current state it's pretty much all pure sorcerers and all rogue splash wizards.
I doubt highly that increased save DCs will cause sorcerers to splash though. The value of the +2 spell penetration that sorcerers gain from going pure will be driven up by increased SR more than the value of saves will increase. The priority of sorcerers is to be the offensive powerhouse of the party, not to tank. Tanks are the ones that try to build defensively and then desire to have more offense than the offense builds.
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Post by Raj on Mar 12, 2014 10:10:10 GMT
I've long toyed with the notion of capping the max skill points per level handed out That would have the universal side effect of slowing down test characters/reincarnations where people save skill points until last level to speed up things, and would be a direct hit to many elf builds as well. Anyway, leaving aside the endless wiz vs sorc debate and staying on the original topic, in the current environment nobody splashes on sorc because the save boost is not a must have given item-based immunities, spell mantles and the good saves you get with pl/demi/gear (consider a pure sorc without save feat reaches low 60s in all, at level 80); otoh pretty much every wizard splashes because it gives them a niche (can apply as rogue) and better tumble ac/utility skills. If you run in stable parties where rogue duty is already covered then you can go pure but the gain is quite limited compared to what sorcs get, and it would be worth only if owning a good DC ego, because a CL ego offset all disadvantages of the splash build (/insert random rant about too powerful randomized loot). So, as the topic title says, it's a matter of giving pure wiz something worth follow that route; sorcs get free channel 1 that's like saying free 1 dc/sp (or if you use channel a lot, it's like saying even more slots) and that's enough for people to forget about saves/disc dump/gear options. SP/DC/slots are the basics for casters so they'd be useful for wizard as well, not sure if you want to make them too similar to sorcs anyway. Free specialization in a school of choice imo would be enough of a carrot without being terribly OP: consider it basically means +2 dc in a school, vs sorcs free channeling being 1dc/1sp in every school, albeit limited to spells known. The fact specialization is quite weak is another issue, and afaik the +5 CL to specialized school a wizard should receive in PL doesn't work either (is it supposed to be implemented?). If you make high saves a must for casters, consider wiz have the same shitty saves of sorcs, and splashing paladin for them doesn't give much either; if you want to make pally splash a true option for sorcs, wiz should be immune/high resistant to such effects as well (int based saves, much like cha-will ones that are in zio), or high dc for enemy attacks that increase in efficacy based on target charisma and so on.
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Post by kaezar on Mar 12, 2014 19:04:33 GMT
Well, here are the ideas I considered, hope somebody can make something out of them. I put the reasons I didn't like them on the parenthesis. Give a chance for a pure wizard loot breaking spell *not* to break loot based on level (too uncertain and maybe too powerful if the chance it big). Give them a bonus to hit with pseudo touch a attacks - the wizard's control allows him to aim the spell better (too few spells affected, although it would give a new life to orb/fists). Give pure wiz a conceal reduction against enemies to self only based on either (same as above for pros and cons) - use of a succesfull legend and lore spell
- lore skill (not good, it is always maxed for wiz)
Create some sort of items by massive expending of XP (if the items are too weak, useless, if too strong, game-breaking). +1 die/1 bonus the weapon buff spells (meh, and steps on some other classes' toes). give pure wizzy casting certain spells the ability to cause special effects. e.g. Bigby's Forceful Hand pushes kd immune critters 20 m back, Freezing spheres coat critters with ice reducing move for a few rounds, etc (too work-intensive in a moment where we shouldn't divide attention.) Give pure wizzy the ability to avoid doing damage to healers, if spell would have healed, it does no damage - the wizzy's deep knowledge of the spell allows him to create "holes" on it to avoid healers (benefits only evokers, incentivates - is that even a word? - sloppy play and the rationale is threadbare at best). Touching the Weave - New spell, short duration (1/6 levels): by using this spell, the wizard can momentarily remove certain protections from a critter for a short time. Not sure about what would be balanced. Critical Immunity? Stun Immunity? Certain Spell Immunities, like, say, grabby hand imunity? Regardless of what is removed, when the spell ends, so does the effects that are affecting the critters. (very hard to balance, and I think unforeseen uses will bite us on unnamable places for sure). I didn't like any of those ideas particularly, but here they are. Hope they spark something on someone. Take care Kaezar
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Post by drunkenboastor on Mar 12, 2014 22:05:35 GMT
Besides Sorcerers, is there a more overpowered class than a Wizard? Discussion to buff Wizards seems insane.
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Post by louisvilleslugger on Mar 12, 2014 22:12:48 GMT
Besides Sorcerers, is there a more overpowered class than a Wizard? Discussion to buff Wizards seems insane. Totally, 100% agreed. Time spent should be on balancing other classes/quasis WAY before tweaking wizards.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 13, 2014 3:43:55 GMT
I've long toyed with the notion of capping the max skill points per level handed out That would have the universal side effect of slowing down test characters/reincarnations where people save skill points until last level to speed up things, and would be a direct hit to many elf builds as well. No, I mean max gained per level, from INT. Sorry for the confusion. I have no issue with point dumps, as they currently stand, as we've built with them in mind. WRT specialization's weakness being another issue, your proposed fix (the free specialization) would link them indelibly. As to the +5 CL, no, I'm pretty sure we haven't implemented that yet; it's just marked as 'finalized' for 'decided on' in the paragon sheet, as one way to incentivize specialists. It may be 'un-finalized', though, depending on whether we decide to make other edits, and what those edits are. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 13, 2014 3:52:59 GMT
Besides Sorcerers, is there a more overpowered class than a Wizard? Discussion to buff Wizards seems insane. Totally, 100% agreed. Time spent should be on balancing other classes/quasis WAY before tweaking wizards. I sort of agree also, save for the fact that, you guessed it, PLs will probably redress a fair amount of that imbalance. I'm mainly interested in pure vs splash, but even then, your point on priorities is well taken. Funky
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