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Post by adamantortoise on Jun 29, 2012 14:01:27 GMT
you can't really give a CL bonus at lvl 50 wiz, because that is more reason imo to go splash. you could still get your CL 60 buffs as a lootmage without having to use a CL item. if however you mean pure wiz gets a CL bonus, then sure. i think perhaps at lvl 40, 60 and 80 for a total of +3 the spell pen thing, i dont really understand, pure sorc "kinda" get +1 bonus to SP, but weather channeling or EDing, can go to max of +3, same as pure wiz, so overall there is no difference in SP between the 2. There is difference because ED is a luxury for wizards as with around 30-40 lv9 slots you want to have some Weirds, Bigby, PWK and gate and some empowered RG and then you think about having Energy Drain and there's no more room for it to say it compesate the Spell pentration like a Sorc. And that if you have max focus in necro, if you only have like Epic spell focus relying on ED will be a bad idea. Also autochannel means one more damage dice on spells everywhere for all spells for all schools that together with 1SP for free is a huge boost, not even mentioning the DC increase, because differently from the 5CL boost on wizard specialization during paragons, autochannel also increase the DC for all spells for all schools. I would be happy if pure wizards get some carrots like pure sorcerers does, but please don't make it for specialized wizard only. Thou one free specialization without need to barring schools would be good imo. Besides, a wizard needs brain to play, a sorcerer needs a build and then you just spam whatever spell you have remaining. (j/k)
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Post by chirality on Jun 30, 2012 2:41:21 GMT
There is difference because ED is a luxury for wizards as with around 30-40 lv9 slots you want to have some Weirds, Bigby, PWK and gate and some empowered RG and then you think about having Energy Drain and there's no more room for it to say it compesate the Spell pentration like a Sorc. And that if you have max focus in necro, if you only have like Epic spell focus relying on ED will be a bad idea. Also autochannel means one more damage dice on spells everywhere for all spells for all schools that together with 1SP for free is a huge boost, not even mentioning the DC increase, because differently from the 5CL boost on wizard specialization during paragons, autochannel also increase the DC for all spells for all schools. I would be happy if pure wizards get some carrots like pure sorcerers does, but please don't make it for specialized wizard only. +1 to all of that and well said. As for free spec, I admit I'm not too keen on the idea, as I'm more for improving spec benefits and making the cost more in line with the benefit, rather than vice versa. I like spec because it forces difficult build decisions. I think spec should be rewarded far more but I don't think it should be easier to obtain. However as I've said before I'm pretty much thumbs-up to anything and everything that the devs could eventually consider and implement. I think at the moment part of the reason that the general, universal, and more or less in-arguable view of casters being overpowered is directly due to a supreme ease of building. I'm sure some will argue with this but let's face it, with tomes in particular and the extreme value of only a handful of spells, the only real difficulty I see for casters is building one that is "perfect" for all areas of the mod, and in particular one that is "perfect" for handling all Abyss situations. Other than that it is extremely easy, and, discounting the exception of already-specialized builds such as pariahs, normal wiz, sorc and even theurge have nothing like the tough build decisions that the average tank must face. I think that the issue of building a powerful caster than can more or less be highly effective anywhere is part of the problem of "casters being overpowered". I see several ways to mitigate this issue or otherwise address it, and the devs are clearly aware of and attempting to introduce new things to force us as players to have a harder time choosing schools, spells, etc. The last spell update, including some gems (but still overall perhaps a bit underwhelming) is a great example of this. Flensing alone is so good that I believe many or most sorcs have taken it, and many have reinced to pursue a new school strategy including Trans. The new spells for other schools are promising as well and given the value of Ench and Abj in Abyss this has helped as well. Even so it is still extremely easy to make an arcane that can really perform greatly in most runs, and you often here references to "hells/ely/abo" builds or "abyss builds". Other than that there is not too much discrimination, and I think many would be more satisfied--perhaps at their own "expense" if we had to make harder and more unappealing decisions when building an arcane. What does all that have to do with this topic? Well, I didn't intend it to get that long but basically that is my reasoning for not putting my vote to making specialization easier or less costly. Simultaneous spec in two schools sounds great but it's still rather mediocre unless spec benefits themselves are improved greatly, in which case dual spec may be seen as overpowered (although to be honest I would be inclined disagree because sorc is so powerful anyway--but I'm done with that rant and like I said let's see what the future holds). ;D
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Post by gandoron on Jul 1, 2012 23:56:54 GMT
I do agree that loot wiz enjoy some benefits over pure wiz, so: 1. we need a pure vs splash/loot carrot, however 2. we also need something to help wiz's in general, I think if we constrain that only to pure wiz, it would be a mistake.
Spec is a potentially obvious way to help wiz, and it's not perfect. I still haven't heard of many suggestions outside of spec to help them. Spec costs are high. It's very hard to ban two schools, particularly in Abyss...this speaks well to the Devs work to make all schools useful. Div is hard with PWK. Enchant is possible, though Mind Fog, GWM, rebuke, etc are nice. Abj has gotten more useful (and I believe important for counterspelling). I have seen some wiz banning ill and dropping Weird and EV.
I think we could do some of the following: 1. Drop the cost for spec 2. Give a free spec, potentially for a splash as well (see #4) 3. Allow spells from spec school to be cast spontaneously 4. Give only Pure wiz a spec benefit a boost, such as: a. +2 CL/SP, etc or extra slots b. 25%+ or mod chance to not use the mem'd spell
This means that you could still have one free spec for pure and splash, but allow the pure to get an extra benefit for their spec school. This essentially turns almost all wiz into some type of specialist.
-G
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Post by desocupado on Mar 6, 2014 15:51:50 GMT
Here a few ideas, to improve specialized wizard.
1 - Legendary wizard get an extra casting of the epic spell from their specialization school. 2 - Legendary Pure wizards, get an extra casting of the paragon spell from their specialization school (either at level 41+ or at level 61+). 3 - Pure wizard get another specialization school (or lose one less school)
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Post by Paradoom on Mar 6, 2014 17:00:25 GMT
The problems for wizard as I see it: While it is often praised that wizards can be very universal, still the specialization is suggested very often, what I read from the suggestions made here. That is very controversial to me, and I never seriously thought about going specialized on my wizard. The cost over-weighs the gain by far in losing the ability to cast all spells from the barred spell schools and thus losing the universal aspect that makes wizards strong. (That is different for already specialized casters like pale-masters of course). So making wizards specialization costing less or give greater boosts might become a real option as suggested here several times. The other big point I see most wizards struggle with to play out their strong universal arcane aspect are the scarce spell-slots. I have seen many new wizards entering hells with around 20 - 25 spell-slots per spell level. You basically have to choose one spell per level and don't forget you have to get buffs as well, leaving you with either +/- 15 uses of one spell or 8/8 if you split them up to have different ones. Considering the hordes of different mobs you encounter, that amount is very very tough in deeper areas of the mod or go with 3-4 wizards, focusing on certain tasks, while 1-2 sorcerer can do the job just as good. For this I like the idea of getting the chance to cast a spell for free without costing a memorized spell. I would think of something like: caster-level | chance of a free cast | 40 | 5% | 45 | 10% | 50 | 15% | 55 | 20% | 60 | 25% |
This would boost pure ones a bit, and give an extra to splashes using a CL ego item. Using meta-feats is hardly doable as well. You have to really give up on a higher level spell to gain one lower kind with a bit of boost. This might be feasible for 1 or 2 spells, but doing it constantly and all over your book like sorcerers is impossible. Hence you are weaker again in comparison to sorcerer. So I would like to see them get some extra beef, when they use those, like extra damage, higher DC or longer duration. An idea out of the blue could be using the intelligence modifier as a base to boost those. A little of topic: The spell-book in general is a pain in the ***. After many years of dormant I started playing my wizard again after we had the savable spell-book introduced. That saved me a lot of trouble constantly shifting around my whole book manually for every occasion/run. I understand that it caused reproducible server crashes, but I still hope this can be fixed. I see no other workaround for this.
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Post by excruciator on Mar 6, 2014 20:52:25 GMT
If Wizard received the paragon class benefit which they were slated to (get one free caster level per 4 paragon levels in their specialist school), it would be a huge step in the right direction of narrowing the power gap between Sorcerers and Wizards. However, I have to say the spell slot change really was a huge kick in the teeth to Wizards. It probably hurt them more than any other spell casting class, to such an extent that they went from being a rare sight to becoming an endangered species.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 6, 2014 22:52:23 GMT
I had this crazy idea - how about 50% (+ Int mod, maybe) % chance of not spending a spell slot when casting form their specialization school. In addtion to this, of course: 3 - Pure wizard get another specialization school (or lose one less school)
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Post by Mister Pin on Mar 6, 2014 23:45:24 GMT
next. . . .
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Post by Mister Pin on Mar 7, 2014 0:10:41 GMT
I play 2 wizards, 1 pure demi2 @ lvl 80, and 1 lootmage @ 78. That's pretty much all i play anymore. I don't have a school spec in either one and have no probs soloing areas or play in party. I am by my own admission a fair player, I.E., middle of the pack so to speak. I'm no pro by any means.
I also have a lvl 60 sorc that although i know packs more punch, i am loath to play due to the usual limitations ( spells schools/spell selection ) I find a wiz or wiz/rogue much more adaptable to any area i go , whether alone or with others.
A few of you posting admitted not even playing a wiz, yet you want to change them. Why? IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT. Some may think differently and that's cool, but think about this; if Funky does go and implement any of these changes , you can be SURE that 6 months from that happening, people will start whining about how "wizards are too powerful, yada yada yada. . . A couple from this post even. And then it will start again, like we all have seen over the years, another nerf. I have so many toons i don't even play anymore due to past nerfs, hours lost, some are demi toons- only to find their damage has been cut by 1/3, or major loss to spell slots, etc. People have up and left the game because of this, and we don't need that at all.
I have never played a theurge, or a Herald, or even a Palemaster for that matter, and i would never assume to think how they should work in the first place unless i have taken the time to make one and play it for a few months. Would i like to see the wizard more powerful? Who wouldn't. But don't. It's fine just the way it is.
I'm done. Let er rip. Pin
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2014 0:24:54 GMT
And then it will start again, like we all have seen over the years, another nerf. I have so many toons i don't even play anymore due to past nerfs, hours lost, some are demi toons- only to find their damage has been cut by 1/3, or major loss to spell slots, etc. People have up and left the game because of this, and we don't need that at all How do you know wizards will get nerfed? Also, that's why the reincarnation system exists in the first place.
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Post by Mister Pin on Mar 7, 2014 0:39:45 GMT
All you have to do is look in the past- i'm sure i can make a list - CoT, Monk Staffy, Wiz (spell slots), Barbarian. I'm sure if i wracked my weary brain i could come up with more but... Sincerely, the wiz is just fine- what i find hard to believe is some of the same people that want to nerf more wiz spells - like the karsus spell, and Reverse Gravity, are NOW on here wanting to make the wiz "better". I really think in my humble opinion, that any time that Funky may have to spare for things like this should be catering to the influx ( though small ) of new players to attract even more people to the game, not tweaking classes that aren't "perfect" in some peoples minds. You won't find / get perfection, but in my thoughts the wiz is pretty dang close enuff. I still say it is fine just the way it is.
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Post by archmage on Mar 7, 2014 4:15:20 GMT
Wizards can still be very effective, however they do require a bit more knowledge of the mod and spawns to be successful and are more work than a sorc. They are rewarded though with much more flexibility and an insane number of skill points which increase in value on a regular basis. The one place they suffer a pretty serious hit is the Abyss with the random nature of those spawns it can sometimes be difficult to plan ahead. There are definitely spells I wish I could slot in on my sorc for one run on a frequent basis, like undeath to death or other various situational spells. A wizard can do this and it is one of their great strengths. And to be fair, the reason the spellslot nerf seemed to have hit them harder was because there is no spontaneous druid or cleric counterpart a la the once slated Favored Soul.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Mar 7, 2014 6:21:09 GMT
I'm drunk for the first time since turning 21, and my last post was lost by closing my window with a typo.
Short Version:
It makes no sense to make wizards equal to sorcs with umber of spell casts (chance to not consume a spell). A wizard's appeal is their flexibility. Make their flexibility more appealing. -- Multiply Direct-damage spells with an additional 1% damage per wizard level, AoE damage by Wizard/2 Levels--lowering need for Leg/Paragon focii. -- They already get a DC benefit w/ more feats for focuses. Make spell-specific benefits. * -- Heralds will mostly cry with this one, as I see clouds as having the most beneficial modification, but most crossover. * -- Give cold spells a chance to decrease DEX for wizards. * -- Fire spells to decrease strength. * -- Acid spells chance to decrease CON. * -- Disable Spells a chance to ignore immunity, but at penalized duration, * -- More situationally-super-effective spells: arcane spells than can negate osyluth, tree poisons, imp stings, dominates--idea is not benefits to existing spells-- esoteric damages, special buffs (like 8 second invuln or super-haste (more APR), or even grating CL to allies).
That way we keep the flavor and diversity of the wizard its appeal and the CL/Casts of the sorc it's a appeal.
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Post by chirality on Mar 7, 2014 7:27:47 GMT
That sounds nice but we're still waiting on the old +CLs in spec school for starters The problem with the concept of "wizard power = flexibility" is that the primary "flavor/variation" mechanic built into the class is that of specialization; furthermore it's fail on HG (thanks to HG being awesome, of course). I'd like to see an arrival at some kind of overhaul which makes one situation more viable/plausible: 1) Spec is really totally arguably worth doing, yet non-spec wiz gets enough carrot for generalist to be good option as well; so wiz starts with 2 choices, either a mage that's competitive-with-sorc and is a wizard specialist; or a mage that's competitive-with-sorc but ultimate wiz flexibility. 2) Spec is just left for dead and we envision wizard to stop trying to compete with sorc in raw power and receive some different treatment for some niche of flexibility or whatever it's supposed to be (bonus school feats? scribing scrolls costs no xp? polymathy can be changed 1/rest? polymathy is free?) At the moment I just don't see much "that it has going for it" in terms of pursuing some upgrade for making wizards more fun/desirable via their flexibility. Spontaneous casting is ultimate flexibility (and unlike PnP where the vanilla classes were originally balanced, sorc in NWN can apply metamagic feats for free instead of full round cast time--in 3e PnP plan, metamagic was domain of the wizard, this was big source of variation and power balance; in HG it's the sorc who enjoys ultimate casting by all aspects), having potential to prep the perfect spell for the situation =/= you have it prepped or casts left ingame. On paper it sounds great but in practice i can't see much flexibility advantage that wiz has vs. sorc. Especially when a lot of the "more exotic" spells that sorcs can't "afford" to learn just aren't even that great anyway or are easily substitutable (yeah i made it up!) with some barely-less-effective spell. Supposedly the wizard is looked at by the sorc with jealousy for being able to wield these precious handful of spells the sorc can't afford which are going to be SUPER EFFECTIVE but this theoretical wizardly power of flexibility is extremely difficult to actually bring to life ingame, and it's even more difficult to find the ideal situation: a wizard bragging with glee while the sorc hangs his head in dismay. When did this ever happen? It seems to me like the benefit of wizard is in utility or non-power department: being able to afford another school to have some novelty use which sorc can't afford featwise, being a lootmage, having karsus for only 1 feat leaving room for another precious PL feat. ? I'd just like to see some kind of better benefit for specializing and some better benefit for pure; what doesn't need improvement is loot wizards. I think "wizard that wants to be a real mage" vs. "wizard that takes hit on raw power in exchange for opening/secreting the whole mod" that's the main point of contention I think for "sorc vs wiz" : it's fine and good to argue that loot wizard is comparable in overall "class balance" with sorc, but when it comes to a wizard that wants 100% devotion to being a powerful caster...that's where the envy starts.
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Post by Raj on Mar 7, 2014 8:45:21 GMT
I play 2 wizards, 1 pure demi2 @ lvl 80, and 1 lootmage @ 78. That's pretty much all i play anymore. It's fine just the way it is. Pin You'll appreciate sorc versatility once you get to play abyss or run with more demi iterations. Wiz is a better farmer once you know exactly what the spawns are and have time to change spellbook between rests (solo play, LL areas); in hells you use quite a limited amount of spells too. Anyway for abyss pretty much everybody gave up on wizard as main toon: knowing every spell doesn't mean you have the room to memorize it for the right situation while still keeping a decent versatile spellbook. It has all been said in some of the old posts in this necroed thread anyway, now all I read are quite odd ways to compensate for the lack of slots, while changing the items would be quite a more linear suggestion (and sorcs shouldn't even need the +50% slot boost). Edit: That being said, wizard have such niche: they can splash rogue and not lose too much while having high defence and loot abilities, and for a newbie who doesn't know what works on this server they are a safer choice. Once you master arcanes and bring a sorc to every area of the module you'll realize they're plain better at nuking and making runs smoother. I made a abnormal number of sorcs, including ''loot sorcs'' for secrets farming, abo/ely soloers with odd spell choices, and I toyed with all spell foci as well; then there're heralds, bfm, dsm, so that given enough playtime you could have the best specialized build for any run, outmatching wizards in their farming role. For hells/abyss the standard 4 foci sorc has so much more raw power than even missing some useful spells it is the best choice (and that's why it's been suggested to nerf some universal spells like RG, or lessen the impact of must have psk giving polimathy more versatility f.e. ). Then the real question is if such situation is broken enough to rework the two arcane classes to be equally powerful in the end game. Imo wizards need help if only because historically they're the newbie favourite mage class and having them really lag behind sorcs until they realize they'll always be inferior no matter skill/level is quite unfair, but giving them raw power/slot availability is only going to make them a sorc copycut, so giving them back some slots is a solution but is not going to give them any new appeal. I'll anticipate any comment about limbo needing a lot of new spells so that wizards will be higher rated: abyss needed a lot of new spells too, but once you know how to balance a spellbook sorc can fit everything and more; if even there'll be 20 new spells only wizards with odd spell selections can offer, then sorcs will simply reincarn. That, and limbo/ee aren't going to fix the actual imbalance, especially for people who're not going to visit those places anytime soon. From Pin comment it might looks like wizard players don't know or don't care much about end game parity (he's not the only one either, could name 2-3 devoted wizards players who can't really get in love with sorcs and stick with hells and farming LLs), so it proly isn't a gamebreaking issue for those who are most involved. Eeeeeedit #2: I don't like that it is a conditional carrot. If you are a pure wizzie *AND* you specialize, you get the carrot. To really balance pure sorcerer free channeling, it would have to be something you get just for being pure. What about this, if you are a pure wizzie, you get the benefits of a specialization in one school for free. You can still specialize to get the benefits of second specializatiion, at normal cost. As for splash, I don't think they need help. Lootmages are good and dandy, still going strong. Other variations are even possible, although ppl usually don't take heed. Take care Kaezar Back to necrotopic, I think I suggested the same thing lately but this thread was started when I was on a hiatus, looks like it's a common thought, and a nice carrot for pure wiz (atm there's none, unlike with sorcs). A splashed sorc loses enough free dc/sp that it is only slighty more effective than a wiz (notice how 1-2 points of sp make a huge difference that people give up 34 points in saves for it hint hint), but we are all comparing splashed/pure wiz against pure sorcs. If pure wiz had a carrot, maybe...
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