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Post by Vichya on Aug 23, 2012 11:18:56 GMT
Fallen Angel has "FCs: Base Race, Cleric".
Does a Human Fallen Angel with 35 cleric, 4 figher, 1 paladin suffer multiclass penalty? Human FC is any, but as far as I know this just means the highest class is disregarded, which in this case would be cleric too.
Or is cleric first removed because of Fallen Angel FC and then Human removes figher?
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Post by kaezar on Aug 23, 2012 12:11:34 GMT
It does suffer from xp penalty, since ignoring the cleric class still leaves the 2 remaining classes with more than 1 level of difference.
The "cleric" FC from fallen anges substitutes the "any" from human, does NOT add to it
Take care kaezar
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Post by Vichya on Aug 23, 2012 12:14:04 GMT
Why should it substitute it? If it would it wouldn't mention base race in the list, would it?
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Post by chirality on Aug 23, 2012 13:35:47 GMT
I remember a discussion of this (does HG subrace FC replace base race FC or does it actually enable you to have 2 FCs) ingame once on the !newbie channel. I had always thought it was the former, as kaezar says but one or two argued stridently that this was not the case.
Maybe you should test it and let us know for sure, unless of course kaez already knows for sure.
I'm not sure where I got it from originally as I can't find anything on the NWNWiki about it but as far as my experience goes (no close, careful documented testing, merely "feel" of xp ingame via builds such as the one you describe) you can't avoid a multiclass penalty by having two classes disregarded as FCs.
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Post by Yojimbo on Aug 23, 2012 20:52:50 GMT
The subrace replaces them unless it specifically mentions it includes base race FCs. So in theory a Human FA should have Cleric & Any as FCs of course I don't know how the FC stuff works to know if a glitch of some kind would force the one of the two to be ignored.
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Post by BigStick on Aug 24, 2012 2:27:46 GMT
As I understand it, it should have a penalty since the highest is ignored from being human and cleric is ignored from FA, leaving just paladin and fighter levels to be compared. Since they are more than 1 level apart, you get a 20% penalty. The fact that cleric is the highest class means you get it doubly ignored, but that doesn't really help. A Pal 35 / Cleric 1 / Ftr 4 of the same race & subrace shouldn't have a penalty.
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Post by chirality on Aug 24, 2012 4:05:49 GMT
Well said.
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Post by BigStick on Aug 28, 2012 5:04:50 GMT
As I understand it, it should have a penalty since the highest is ignored from being human and cleric is ignored from FA, leaving just paladin and fighter levels to be compared. Since they are more than 1 level apart, you get a 20% penalty. The fact that cleric is the highest class means you get it doubly ignored, but that doesn't really help. A Pal 35 / Cleric 1 / Ftr 4 of the same race & subrace shouldn't have a penalty. Upon testing, this did not turn out to be true. Further testing to follow... [EDIT] Results thus far: #1. Human / Fallen Angel Classes: Fighter: 3, Paladin: 5, Cleric: 1, Total Levels: 9 #2. Human / Fallen Angel Classes: Cleric: 5, Fighter: 3, Paladin: 1, Total Levels: 9 | #1 | #2 | Enemy | XP | XP | Enraged Crab | 16 | 16 | Enraged Deer | 16 | 16 | Enraged Wolf | 54 | 54 | Enraged Bison | 63 | 63 | Ice Cave Kobold | 54 | 54 | Enraged Eagle | 24 | 24 |
These tests were performed serially, so server population may have been a factor.
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Post by BigStick on Sept 2, 2012 0:01:34 GMT
OK, I'm thinking now that we may have a bug in the XP calculations. I've done further testing with more characters. Here's the list: #1. Human / Fallen Angel Classes: Fighter: 3, Paladin: 5, Cleric: 1, Total Levels: 9 #2. Human / Fallen Angel Classes: Cleric: 5, Fighter: 3, Paladin: 1, Total Levels: 9 #3. Human / Fallen Angel Classes: Cleric: 9, Total Levels: 9 #4. Elf / Fallen Angel Classes: Monk: 3, Fighter: 6 Total Levels: 9 I had expected that #1 & #3 would have no penalty and #2 & #4 would have a 20% penalty. Here's the XP earned in the 2 nd test with 29 - 35 players logged on: Enemy | #1 | #2 | #3 | Enraged Crab | 15 | 15 | 15 | Enraged Deer | 15 | 15 | 15 | Enraged Wolf | 50 | 50 | 50 | Enraged Bison | 58 | 58 | 58 | Ice Cave Kobold | 58 | 58 | 58 | Enraged Eagle | 20 | 20 | 20 |
These results led me to create the 4 th character and try again. This time there were 50+ logged in: Enemy | #3 | #4 | Enraged Crab | 14 | 14 | Enraged Deer | 14 | 14 | Enraged Wolf | 46 | 46 | Enraged Bison | 54 | 54 | Ice Cave Kobold | 46 | 46 | Enraged Eagle | 20 | 20 |
There seems to be either no XP penalty at all, or all of the characters are getting penalized. Anyone have any ideas?
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Post by chirality on Sept 2, 2012 2:53:28 GMT
First of all, thanks for doing this testing, as it's very interesting and something I haven't had the inclination to do myself. Your work is appreciated at any rate.
As for the questions you raise, I have no idea, although I would hazard that perhaps there is no penalty after all--I would sure hope that the alternate isn't true.
Is there any way you can dual box and take the test toons to the Farm or ER with an Oltum'er (of similar level so there wouldn't be any effect other than the +1 party member bonus to calculate in)? I wonder if it might be worth it to see some larger numbers.
That said it really shouldn't matter anyway because even xp gains of such low amount certainly are affected by % deviations (as the difference between ghost party members shows). Shrug. Just looking to see how the experiment could be altered to possibly yield more information and "expose" the "truth".
Also, I'm sure you're aware but it's worth mentioning in case--if the toons are "holding" levels this could impact xp gain (depending on the specifics of course).
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Post by BigStick on Sept 2, 2012 4:57:35 GMT
With no druid / ranger levels, Oltum is out of the question. A 20% difference is noticeable once you get to 5 xp, so these numbers should be sufficient. All of these characters were at a natural level 9, no holding allowed. Death and deleveling were required in more than one case.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Sept 2, 2012 22:12:51 GMT
None of those classes had a difference greater than 4. Level to 15-6 and try again.
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Post by chirality on Sept 3, 2012 1:39:43 GMT
How so? Also stick, yeah I meant with a Oltum-capable "bot" But yeah as you say it would make no difference anyway...just an idea.
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Post by BigStick on Sept 3, 2012 2:52:30 GMT
None of those classes had a difference greater than 4. Level to 15-6 and try again. Unless there's some undocumented HG modification to this rule the difference acceptable before acquiring a multiclass penalty is 1 level. From the manual: I'll work on raising the test characters levels to try it again.
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Post by buddhamind on Sept 3, 2012 2:53:01 GMT
None of those classes had a difference greater than 4. Level to 15-6 and try again. I don't understand why this matters? I was under the impression that, at least in vanilla NWN, an XP penalty kicked in as soon as you had a class difference of more than one level (neglecting FCs and prestige classes, of course).
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