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Post by wolf on Sept 17, 2012 23:30:46 GMT
I really dont think u see my point prepared demi was not an issue back then so how is it now and the same goes for consumibles etc etc etc so how did we manage.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2012 23:45:20 GMT
I know exactly what you're saying, but EVERYTHING was different then. It was done differently. It was put together differently. It was all different. Since everything has been expanded and changed, people don't follow those methods anymore, or not everyone, or not consistently which results in runs like this.
You managed by utilizing the things Yojimbo mentioned. You brought people who knew their classes, you farmed the same runs over and over for the best gear possible, and a million other things. I didn't say it was impossible, I didn't say you needed demi, I didn't say any of those things. The current system makes for a much different approach to the entire module, and as a result, demi counts of individual players when other steps are not also taken into consideration have an impact. As this run proved.
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Post by chammernick on Sept 17, 2012 23:51:13 GMT
this run simply proved that our party layout lacked aoe dps not due to bad casters, or bad tactics, just due to inexperienced casters, we had one dps wizard and a PM for our casters, a new druid (myself) and then a whole lot of tanks, the problem came when we just couldnt pump out the DPS demi, and consumeables had nothing to do with it, dps, and coordination however did, and it was nothing against the party we just didnt come packed for bear like some other runs, now if we could drop the ignorance and arguments i would much appreciate it, i always try and keep people informed of failure vs. success, we failed, dont really matter why the fact is we did, and its not really worth starting an argument about so i would appreciate no more being said...
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Post by gandoron on Sept 18, 2012 1:49:26 GMT
The 3rd form got a lot harder with the changes. The initial spawn is pretty big and hits very quickly. Aoe damage does make a massive difference. I have about 60 total demi iterations and asmo is not as hard as when I first started, but much tougher than the last 3 years or so. I think without the abyss/ego/paragon power creep and people that know their roles, it's a tough fight. -g
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Post by Hercules on Sept 18, 2012 5:38:16 GMT
Plain and simple, you win some and you loose some. Imho this is whats makes it a funny modules to play, it's alive.
if the changes haven't been made, and the fight was just as it was 5 years ago we would all be winners, now where is the fun in that ? I remember many years ago, there was a big discussion about Asmo and tanks when they needed to have disc 127. IIRC there were even a little "bug" that made it nearly impossible for tanks, even with 127 disc to pass the checks. Now we have different issues. Next year we will have yet new issues. Thats the challenge that atleast makes my heart beat a little bit faster every time I go down there, even though I have done this fight many times.
Adapt- improvise - overcome !
sincerely Herc
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Post by KnightErrant on Sept 20, 2012 17:03:40 GMT
A few things about Asmo fights some might not know...
UeF cancels when the caster rests...if your x0 to x3 you likely just became very hittable until it's recast, if you x1 you probably just lost 10+ AC. Nothing can Mord you in the Asmo fight except your party members...I see people wearing Mord rings a lot in the fight, PW ring for immunity to being thrown is good but a BUR/UR breach ring is likely a poor choice compared to something with lots of acid immunity for Ichors and their 125+ AB... The uberness of Greater Restore for any toon not x5 or higher cannot be overstated...four or five constantly GR'd tanks hitting once or twice more a round at 100+ a pop is a lot of damage...not having to stop attacking to restore self and or suck a heal potion is a lot of lost attacks/damage too...Arcane's landing even two or three more spells is huge. A x1 toon that dies in the Asmo fight loses 20 or more AC, if your a melee toon your likely just going to chain die until rebuffed and until then your pretty much done contributing much to the fight...
A lot of this doesn't matter since a party with a couple level 70+ arcane's can usually make really fast work of the mass of mobs with AoE spells making the use of tactics and party support a non factor...but when the party lacks powerful damage spammers it can go south in a hurry... .02 KE.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2012 17:15:18 GMT
Thanks for the input KE!!!
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Post by Yojimbo on Sept 20, 2012 18:29:05 GMT
I am sorry to have been something of the start of this "arguement" but I couldn't sit back and watch a lie be told particularly one such as that. I understand many changes have been made to The Nine Hells but I still firmly believe demis are not required as the initial statement to which I objected implies if not out right says would have to read it from page at this point to be certain of what is says and/or implies. KE points out much of what helps about being demi but more important he notes what alleviates those issues w/ or w/o demi iterations or any number. The fact that with out the aid of the power creep present tactics and party formation become a lot more significant issue. I will use a run I did last night for some comparison we had no bard and no druid on a Malb run we got through 3 spawns with many deaths and a few limbos after which since we had the room to fit it in I logged my 2nd account with a Bard and we dragged my tank and the addition of a Bard/Curser made a world of difference. We had a few multi demi toons so it wasn't a lack of demis and some were L70+
I do wish to respect the OPs request this banter stop and apologize for my part in this but I do wish to have my opinions stated so I do not intend to reply further regardless of what is said.
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Post by Bad on Sept 20, 2012 20:27:30 GMT
You win some you lose some it happens and that makes the fight a challange.
On form 3 I often will ask the group to focus on asmo only and for the druid to hold Immute until the form 3 summons have dropped.
Once immute is down:
The the cleric can miracle to buy the group a bit more time.
I also ask the cleric stay in GS and GR the tanks while they work on form 3.
For those who have force cages I will often remind the group that caging para ichors, para maels, or anything else causing problems will make the difference between win and wipe in the very small window of time needed to take down form 3.
If we have a PM I ask for enervates on Asmo and try to make sure the arcanes have RG/cold/evards/clouds to use on Asmo.
The current form 3 set-up makes it a DPS race so I do my best to have the group know what to do and who should be doing what during that small window of time.
There are many factors that help win this fight (Demi counts, uber gear etc.) but I always think that the most important factor in the end is working as a team and each player knowing what is expected from him/her in this team effort.
That requires a player taking on a leadership role and explaining the overall startegy and individual resposibilities to the others in the party so that the group begins to work as a team.
Just my thoughts on this.
Bad
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2012 20:55:28 GMT
No one said they were required. That hasn't ever been my remarks. But, they were a factor here. With all the things you mentioned, It would be irrelevant. As Blass said, what did people do prior to Demis? The things you mentioned which make successful runs weren't all present here, which makes the demi counts of the party a big factor.
Sure, you can do things to make that irrelevant, and you can coordinate and prepare and things go smooth. That was never what I was arguing. All I was saying and continue to say is the demi iterations this party had and where they were at factored in to this fight, and do in others when your other bases aren't covered. Not a single lie has been shared. Nice try though.
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Post by Torin on Sept 20, 2012 21:12:23 GMT
Coordination aka good play is of course the most important thingy.
But don't underestimate tanks. People always runmsg for ABCD class. When it comes to Asmo 3rd form, count the numbers of "hard-hitting" tanks. These are Staffmasters, Barbarians and staffmonks (atm). With 0-1 hard-hitters, well, good luck. With 3-4 it becomes near "easy". Just from my statistics of small numbers ...
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Post by bazukar on Sept 21, 2012 20:22:24 GMT
I really dont think u see my point prepared demi was not an issue back then so how is it now and the same goes for consumibles etc etc etc so how did we manage. You mean back when you had vanilla BFM/DSMs, tanks with unresistable damage and nothing had phys imms so a properly built xbow rogue was nigh unto a god? Not to mention the manticore shennanigans. Oh noez, it was so much harder back in the dayz
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Sept 22, 2012 2:50:24 GMT
I really dont think u see my point prepared demi was not an issue back then so how is it now and the same goes for consumibles etc etc etc so how did we manage. You mean back when you had vanilla BFM/DSMs, tanks with unresistable damage and nothing had phys imms so a properly built xbow rogue was nigh unto a god? Not to mention the manticore shennanigans. Oh noez, it was so much harder back in the dayz Actually I thought he was meaning even further back in the day, u know when u were a lad, back when Tia did things like Massive AOE Kickback, Dispater room had to be done with a wall and people still missed tag, when Quimath's chain's could actually be gusted and people still wiped on that fight in a matter of seconds, regularly, when Min was the scariest run in hell's, before Stygia had a shop, back when Hell's were actually, well, hellish even with a full party of core classes played by real vets who new how to play, u know before BFM's, DSM's, and BUR's were a figment of your imagination. Before BUR Subraces and Uber gear setups, when the vets wore Dachy gear in Hells and thought they were the shiz, but meh, what do I know. Hells were harder back in the day, but people complained so they got made easier, Hell has never been so easy, and that is before you add Paragon Levels. It wasn't too long ago that Nessus was won with a 5 and a 3 man party, so please, can the sarcasm cause back in the day that simply wasn't possible. Now it is. Wasn't gunna comment but as usual, the asshats wound me up enough that I left my better judgement in my other trouser pockets....... Oh well.... Cata
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Post by Paradoom on Sept 22, 2012 9:02:50 GMT
I read here all the time "back in the day" bla bla bla. Who cares? We are talking about how it is NOW and how one should approach the fight TODAY! Seeing groups going to nessus and need 6+ hours ending in a wipe after so much effort shows quite well that you have to change some tactics. Gear, subs, demicounts, players and asmo all have changed. Comparing this with the "old" days is hardly doing any good here.
What the matter is, is that people are going into nessus unprepared and playing it like it is an LL run, which ends at the bossfight in a wipe unncessarily. On top of that, they don´t use the tactics planned and often explained. And that´s what annoys alot of people. And I dont mind a wipe once in a while in a nessus fight, but not if it is because ppl. came completely unprepared and/or aint listening.
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Sept 22, 2012 13:00:06 GMT
Well Para I've been on this server since before Hell's came out, I've done a lot of Hell runs, I've done more Nessus runs just to help than many have actually done for tag and I've seen many more wins than losses. So I think I can speak from some authority when I say to have the best chance of winning a Nessus run now you need the same tactics for the Asmo fight as back when I first started winning Nessus.
Enough DPS to win Asmo third form, a party that works well together, a player people will listen to if the fight goes to hell in a basket so you can pull it back from a near loss and a good bit of luck.
I've seen runs full of vets wipe and runs ful of noobs that won. Demi count has sod all to do with a Nessus win. Even less so now that you can have a level 80 Non Demi who is powerful enough to beat the crap out of a level 60 5 x Demi. An unlikely situation yes but meh, it could happen. Point is, talking about demi count in a situation where no one there is going to be level 60 (You know the level the run is aimed at) is redundant, once you hit level 65 your toon is overpowered for the run ne way..
As for you last paragraph, I know all the players who were on this run and I very much doubt any of them were unprepared, they just took the best group they good get together at the time and it lacked the dps. It happens.
Untill the Elder Evils come in Asmo and the Prince Fights should have the highest fail rate on the server, they are end game runs, it sucks to fail yes, but that is how it should be, hell if it was a guaranteed win no one would want to go there. There would be no challenge or risk.
Cat
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