A Question RE: Barb Weapon Options

[hfb]

Greetings,

I am curious as to which of these options is superior:

1. 7 WM + OC/DC + Great Axe + Shapestrong for 1.5 dmg [13-20(x5) @ 5 attacks per rnd]

2. OC/DC + Dire Mace + Shapestrong for 7 attacks per round [13-20(x4)]

Do the extra though smaller packets w/ dire mace out DPS the fewer but bigger packets from 2 hander? Especially when crits are included in the calculation. I have no idea how to estimate what percent of the physical dmg would on average would land.

The build is a looter barb str (uni-ish) tank. Option one is WM7/R1/Barb32 using Legendary Plate of the Master. Option two is Ftr6/R2/Barb32 w/ many more gear options. (Is plate even a real option at all past hells?) AB is basically the same for both builds ~96-7 and Str is identical: 54.

HS is not an option for the build I am working on. Clockwork boots is an option for runs prior to middle hells.

Please correct my calculations regarding crit ranges if I have goofed. (Keen and IC are assumed for both weapons.)

Many thanks for your help with this.

[tomaan]

As a general rule, more attacks = more damage.

I'm also playing a barb with well-randomized legendary plate of the master -- haven't taken past hells yet but so far gear limitations haven't been an issue

[arek]

All calculations assume 100 base damage per attack, all hitting, no conceal, over 10 rounds (1 minute). Fractions in number of crits are rounded down.
Note: OC gives +1 crit range, WM7 gives +2 crit range.
Note2: I got the crit ranges from Shard's Build tool, using weapons the tool showed as having the correct base crit range.

• Greataxe - 5 attacks/round
  
  • OC/DC Only (14-20/x4): 50 attacks, 17 crits = 15,150 damage.
    
  • OC/DC+WM7 (13-20/x5): 50 attacks, 20 crits = 19,500 damage.
  
  
• Dire Mace - 7 attacks/round
  
  • OC/DC Only (14-20/x4): 70 attacks, 24 crits = 14,200 damage.
    
  • OC/DC+WM7 (13-20/x5): 70 attacks, 28 crits = 18,200 damage.
  
  
• Scythe - 5 attacks/round
  
  • OC/DC Only (17-20/x5): 50 attacks, 10 crits = 13,500 damage.
    
  • OC/DC+WM7 (16-20/x6): 50 attacks, 12 crits = 16,500 damage.
  
  
• Halberd - 5 attacks/round
  
  • OC/DC Only (11-20/x3): 50 attacks, 25 crits = 15,000 damage.
    
  • OC/DC+WM7: (10-20/x4): 50 attacks, 27 crits = 19,650
  
  
• Double Scimitar - 7 attacks/round
  
  • OC/DC Only (11-20/x3): 70 attacks, 35 crits = 14,000 damage.
    
  • OC/DC+WM7: (10-20/x4): 70 attacks, 38 crits = 18,400 damage.

So, in terms of raw damage, Greataxe beats Dire Mace by a decent margin. If you can afford the feats, tho, Halberd comes out ahead of Greataxe when coupled with both WM7 and DevCrit, and is probably worth considering even with just devcrit, since it's only 150 damage behind and is a dual-typed weapon. The biggest problem with Halberd is the upcoming weapons nerf, when halberd will be knocked down to just 20/x2. Lemme do one other set of calculations, using just Greataxe and Dire Mace for comparison here...with a 50% miss chance. For comparison purposes, both of these assume WM7+OC/DC:

Greataxe: 25 attacks, 10 crits = 9750 damage.
Dire Mace: 35 attacks, 14 crits = 9100 damage.

I put this here because someone said, with regards to similar calculations I made when the 50% damage bonus for large weapons first hit, that conceal negated the bonus. I think this reasonably shows that it doesn't, and that all things equal large weapons beat double weapons. And if conceal applies to the critical threat roll all I think that'll do is reduce the value of large crits vs a large crit range further.

I hope all this didn't confuse you too much, and that it helps you make a decision.

--Arek

P.S. If you're going for WM7 and gonna cheese OC/DC Greataxe from an item, Greataxe is probably the best weapon here, by a fairly wide margin - WM7 makes an enormous difference.

[Vichya]

Keep in mind that the numbers posted assume no damage resistance at all. Concealment on the other hand doesn't matter as it just scales these numbers but their relation will remain invariant.

[tomaan]

Sept 23, 2012 14:22:34 GMT Vichya said:

Keep in mind that the numbers posted assume no damage resistance at all. Concealment on the other hand doesn't matter as it just scales these numbers but their relation will remain invariant.

Shouldn't double weapon have the advantage when you factor conceal? Meaning: there are more chances per round to beat it than a single weapon?

[Vichya]

No. Let's assume you compare two weapons 1 and 2. They do D1 and D2 damage, and have N1 and N2 attacks per round. Your hit chance due to concealment is P.

Then the ratio of the average damage is P*N1*D1 / P*N2*D2 = N1*D1 / N2*D2. Concealment doesn't change it.

On the other hand assume you hit a mob with R damage resistance. Now the ratio becomes P*N1*(D1-R) / P*N2*(D2-R) = N1*(D1-R) / N2*(D2-R). This can't be simplified and is in general not equal to N1*D1 / N2*D2.

For those who skipped this math section, in simple terms it means that if you attack something with damage resistance then doing few bigger chunks of damage is preferable to many small ones.

[arek]

To simplify what Vichya just said about resistance, if you hit a mob with 50 resist with a weapon that does 100 damage, you'll do 50 damage. If you, on the other hand, hit that same mob with 150 damage, you'll do 100 damage. The above comparisons already show large weapons winning by a decent margin....and with 50 resist, the bonus now means you do 100% more damage per hit instead of 50% (based on the above numbers, exact values will vary in the mod), thus increasing the gap even more.

As for more attacks doing more damage, Yes they do....if the damage per attack is equal. In the case of large weapons, that's no longer the case.

--Arek

[Torin]

I would do:
Splash 4 (or more) fighter levels and take all weapon specialization feats(+20 physical damage, +30 on large weapon). Take Halberd as large weapon. And OC/DC. If you want Rogue levels, that would be your Ftr6/R2/Barb32 build. (Otherwise, 31 Barbarian 4 Fighter 5 Harper Scout are my favorite Barbarian build atm).

Keep in mind that not all mobs are vulnerable to critical hits, i. e. most bosses are not.

[hfb]

Thank you for the math. It was clear and not confusing at all. I was struggling with the exotics and elemental dmg types and then I RTFM! Question answered and Feh! Vz.:

>>snip<<

Two Handed Weapons
- Weapons wielded two handed will do 50% extra to all their damage types. This will stack with weapon buffs but wont work with Shapestrong rage or with double weapons like the two-bladed sword.

>>snip<<
(from the documentation summary page on the forums.)

So, no SS + 150% for me.

A new question then occurs, is this good information since staff monks seem to get the 50% and yet staff is a double-sided weapon like a two-bladed sword....to which I say, "Meh."

The other bit of evidence and the inspiration for the OP was the pixie bastard sword build in the base class builds forums. It reported a ~2200 point crit which indicates that the 50% was happening for that build.

Finally, I am sorry to hear even rumors of less love for tanks. We have a pretty tough row to hoe as it is and less effective tools for the trade does not bode well, imho. (meh^2)

[arek]

Actually, the damage bonus does currently work with shapestrong rage, and is one reason why Barbarians are among the top damage dealers atm. As for your question about the damage a staff monk does, Here's the math for a 9 attack/round one (22M/13WM/5HS):

Quarterstaff, monk progression, HS (9 attacks per round), WM7, OC/DC (16-20/x4 crits), 100 base damage/hit:
- 90 attacks, 22 crits = 23,400 damage.
With a Wrap of the Dark Prince for yet another attack (now 10/round) this becomes:
- 100 attacks, 25 crits = 26,250 damage.

For comparison purposes, the "Gold Standard" Barbarian (30barb/5wm/5hs w/devcrit) gets the following damage ratings with the weapons shown:
Greataxe (7 attacks/round): 24,900
Greataxe + Divine Power (Uxan Plate or Wrap, 8 attacks/round): 28,800
Halberd (7 attacks/round): 26,250
Halberd + DP (8 attacks/round): 30,000

--Arek

P.S. Level 50 Divine Power can also be had with potions from Elysium, but those are hard to get.

[tomaan]

As Arek said, the bonus is applying with Shapestrong, and, whether you go with double weapon or large weapon, you're going to generate a lot of damage -- this whole discussion may well be splitting hairs.

For example, I'm playing a great axe barby with Ftr/Hrpr Scout; while I'm sure there are builds out there that can outdamage it, it does really, really well. I don't think you can really go "wrong" either way.

[Yojimbo]

I think a well played and geared medium sized Staffmaster might be the top DPS melee currently but it requires the skill to know when and what damage to use and having things setup for fast changes or damage types and/or weapons.

[hfb]

Great work, Arek; lots of stuff to crunch there. Thank you very much to you and to Tomaan and Yojimbo for your insights as well, oh, and the sweet commutation bit from Vichya, too!

It seems I should become more familiar with Shard's Spreadsheet of Goodness! Also, thanks for the information on what works and doesn't. It is good to see some folks geeking out about this stuff even more than I do.

And I should look out for some Plate of Uxan Uldorath and by a Cloak of Worldliness or w/e it is called. Thanks for that bit too. Geeks rule! (said with much respect and aspiration.)

[arek]

You can't use the Uxan plate to buff and swap, since taking it off removes the buff (I'll bet that the cloak is the same way, too). On the other hand, the Uxan plate is generally worth wearing until you can get and use a Wrap. Just look for a good one. :-)

--Arek

[hfb]

Roger and the armor is pretty key for the OC/DC w/ great axe. So be it. Thanks.