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Post by buddhamind on Oct 21, 2012 17:22:57 GMT
Champion of DeneirFallen Angel Paladin Purpose of this build: To make the best paladin possible with a UR subrace! Deneir (pronounced deh-NEER), often called The Scribe of Oghma, was the neutral good lesser deity of art, cartography, glyphs, images, knowledge, literature and scholars.
A Harper agent (also known as a Harper scout) is a member of the semi-secret organization known as the Harpers, and members are scattered all across Faerûn. These individuals are dedicated to battling evil, discovering and preserving forgotten lore, and maintaining the balance between nature and civilization. Harper agents are the "field agents" of the Harper organization, acting directly to gather intelligence and eliminate threats to the greater good. Equally adept at operating alone or in small groups, agents display a versatility that few others can match.Race: Half-ElfFC: Any, Low-Light Vision, 1 extra skill point per level Can take LSA Spot and Listen during LLs Immune to Sleep Subrace: Fallen AngelFC: Base Race/Cleric +5 Wisdom +2 Charisma Strider, Adds Wings, +10 Heal Free Feats: Divine Might, Divine Shield Alignment: Lawful Good Abilities | At Creation | After Log-in | STR | 15 | 15 | DEX | 8 | 8 | CON | 10 | 10 | WIS | 9 | 14 | INT | 14 | 14 | CHA | 17 | 19 |
Level | Class | Abilities | Skills | Feats | 1 | Fighter | | | Blooded Power Attack | 2 | Paladin | | | | 3 | Paladin | | | Weapon Focus: Morningstar | 4 | Paladin | Cha | | | 5 | Paladin | | | | 6 | Paladin | | | Alertness | 7 | Paladin | | | | 8 | Fighter | Cha | | Improved Critical: Morningstar | 9 | Paladin | | 4 Discipline 6 Lore 8 Persuade 4 Search (Cross-class) | Iron Will | 10 | Paladin | | | | 11 | Paladin | | | | 12 | Paladin | Cha | | Cleave | 13 | Paladin | | | | 14 | Paladin | | | | 15 | Paladin | | | Great Cleave | 16 | Paladin | Cha | | | 17 | Paladin | | | | 18 | Paladin | | | Extra Smiting | 19 | Paladin | | | | 20 | Paladin | Cha | | | 21 | Harper Scout | | | Epic Weapon Focus: Morningstar Great Charisma I | 22 | Paladin | | 25 Concentration | | 23 | Paladin | | | | 24 | Paladin | Str | | Great Smiting I | 25 | Harper Scout | | | | 26 | Harper Scout | | | | 27 | Paladin | | | Great Smiting II | 28 | Paladin | Str | | | 29 | Harper Scout | | | Great Charisma II | 30 | Paladin | | | Great Smiting III and IV | 31 | Paladin | | | | 32 | Paladin | Str | | | 33 | Paladin | | | Great Smiting V and VI | 34 | Paladin | | | | 35 | Paladin | | | | 36 | Paladin | Str | | Great Smiting VII and VIII | 37 | Paladin | | | | 38 | Paladin | | | | 39 | Paladin | | | Great Smiting IX and X | 40 | Paladin | Str | | | 41 | Paladin | | | | 42 | Paladin | Str | | LSA: Tumble | 43 | Paladin | | | | 44 | Paladin | Str | | | 45 | Paladin | | | LSA: Listen | 46 | Paladin | Str | | | 47 | Paladin | | | | 48 | Paladin | Str | | Epic Prowess | 49 | Paladin | | | | 50 | Paladin | Str | | | 51 | Paladin | | | Armor Skin | 52 | Paladin | Str | | | 53 | Paladin | | | | 54 | Paladin | Str | | Legendary Weapon Focus: Morningstar | 55 | Paladin | | | | 56 | Paladin | Str | | | 57 | Paladin | | 60 Tumble | Overwhelming Critical | 58 | Paladin | Str | | | 59 | Paladin | | | | 60 | Paladin | Str | 63 Listen 63 Discipline 63 Parry 13 Craft Armor 13 Craft Weapon | Devastating Critical |
Abilities at Level 60 | Stats | +14 | STR | 44 | 58 | DEX | 8 | 22 | CON | 12 | 26 | WIS | 14 | 28 | INT | 12 | 26 | CHA | 30 | 44 |
Saves at Level 60 (Fully Geared)Armor Class at Level 60Base | 10 | Natural | 17 | Deflection | 17 | Dodge | 20 | Armor (Heavy) | 8+18=26 | Shield (Tower) | 3+15=18 | Dex | 3 | Tumble | 12 | Craft Armor | 1 | Armor Skin | 2 | TOTAL | 126 |
Add 4 for girding. Add 1-2 for Demi stat bonuses, 1 for +16 gear, 3 if you wear an Asmo item, 3 if you can get a Strongheart, and 2 from the Cania plate. Add 1 or 2 for exceptionally randomized items. Attack Bonus at Level 60Base | 20 | Epic | 10 | Legendary | 15 | WF | 1 | GWF | 0 | EWF | 2 | LWF | 3 | Epic Prowess | 1 | Craft Weapon | 1 | Strength mod | 24 | Magical Bonus | 20 | TOTAL | 97 |
7 attacks per round with moliated Harper boots. Progression 97 / 92 / 87 / 82 / 97 / 92 / 87 Add 1-2 for Demi stat bonuses, and 1 for +16 gear. Final HP = 860 Great Smite AB = 93 Great Smite Damage = 68d20 (+17d20 Sacred)
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Post by buddhamind on Oct 21, 2012 17:23:59 GMT
Pelor's Forgotten Champion(Fallen Angel 31 Pal / 5 HS / 4 Ftr) Non-smiting version, picks up dexterity, weapon specialization, extend spell, and +1 AB Similar to Vichya's Harper Knight of Mystra Race: Half-ElfFC: Any, Low-Light Vision, 1 extra skill point per level Can take LSA Spot and Listen during LLs Immune to Sleep Subrace: Fallen AngelFC: Base Race/Cleric +5 Wisdom +2 Charisma Strider, Adds Wings, +10 Heal Free Feats: Divine Might, Divine Shield Alignment: Lawful Good Abilities | At Creation | After Log-in | STR | 16 | 16 | DEX | 16 | 16 | CON | 12 | 12 | WIS | 10 | 15 | INT | 12 | 12 | CHA | 8 | 10 |
Level | Class | Abilities | Skills | Feats | 1 | Fighter | | | Blooded Power Attack | 2 | Paladin | | | | 3 | Paladin | | | Weapon Focus: Morningstar | 4 | Paladin | Str | | | 5 | Paladin | | | | 6 | Paladin | | | Alertness | 7 | Paladin | | | | 8 | Fighter | Str | | Improved Critical: Morningstar | 9 | Paladin | | 4 Discipline 6 Lore 8 Persuade 4 Search (Cross-class) | Iron Will | 10 | Paladin | | | | 11 | Paladin | | | | 12 | Paladin | Str | | Cleave | 13 | Paladin | | | | 14 | Paladin | | | | 15 | Paladin | | | Great Cleave | 16 | Paladin | Str | | | 17 | Paladin | | | | 18 | Paladin | | | Greater Weapon Focus | 19 | Paladin | | | | 20 | Paladin | Str | | | 21 | Harper Scout | | | Epic Weapon Focus: Morningstar Great Dexterity I | 22 | Paladin | | 25 Concentration | | 23 | Fighter | | | | 24 | Fighter | Str | | Weapon Specialization Epic Weapon Specialization | 25 | Harper Scout | | | | 26 | Harper Scout | | | | 27 | Paladin | | | Extend Spell | 28 | Harper Scout | Str | | | 29 | Harper Scout | | | Great Dexterity II | 30 | Paladin | | | Epic Prowess | 31 | Paladin | | | | 32 | Paladin | Str | | Armor Skin | 33 | Paladin | | | Great Strength I | 34 | Paladin | | | | 35 | Paladin | | | Great Strength II | 36 | Paladin | Str | | Great Strength III | 37 | Paladin | | | | 38 | Paladin | | | Great Strength IV | 39 | Paladin | | | Great Dexterity III | 40 | Paladin | Str | | | 41 | Paladin | | | | 42 | Paladin | Str | | LSA: Tumble | 43 | Paladin | | | | 44 | Paladin | Str | | | 45 | Paladin | | | LSA: Listen | 46 | Paladin | Str | | | 47 | Paladin | | | | 48 | Paladin | Str | | Legendary Weapon Specialization | 49 | Paladin | | | | 50 | Paladin | Str | | | 51 | Paladin | | | Great Dexterity IV | 52 | Paladin | Str | | | 53 | Paladin | | | | 54 | Paladin | Str | | Legendary Weapon Focus: Morningstar | 55 | Paladin | | | | 56 | Paladin | Str | | | 57 | Paladin | | 60 Tumble | Overwhelming Critical | 58 | Paladin | Str | | | 59 | Paladin | | | | 60 | Paladin | Str | 63 Listen 63 Discipline 63 Parry 13 Craft Armor 13 Craft Weapon | Devastating Critical |
Abilities at Level 60 | Stats | +14 | STR | 44 | 58 | DEX | 20 | 34 | CON | 12 | 26 | WIS | 15 | 29 | INT | 12 | 26 | CHA | 14 | 28 |
Saves at Level 60 (Fully Geared)Armor Class at Level 60Base | 10 | Natural | 17 | Deflection | 17 | Dodge | 20 | Armor (Light) | 3+16=19 | Shield (Large) | 2+15=17 | Dex | 12 | Tumble | 12 | Craft Armor | 1 | Armor Skin | 2 | TOTAL | 127 |
Add 4 for girding. Add 1-2 for Demi stat bonuses, 1 for +16 gear, 3 if you wear an Asmo item, and 3 if you can get a Strongheart. Add 1 or 2 for exceptionally randomized items. Attack Bonus at Level 60Base | 20 | Epic | 10 | Legendary | 15 | WF | 1 | GWF | 1 | EWF | 2 | LWF | 3 | Epic Prowess | 1 | Craft Weapon | 1 | Strength mod | 24 | Magical Bonus | 20 | TOTAL | 98 |
7 attacks per round with Harper boots. Progression 97 / 92 / 87 / 82 / 97 / 92 / 87 Add 1-2 for Demi stat bonuses, and 1 for +16 gear. Final HP = 920
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Post by buddhamind on Oct 21, 2012 17:24:37 GMT
Anticipated QuestionsWhy Fighter? Can't you do COT and get just as many feats, while preserving your smite AB?You can make COT work... if smite AB is all you care about. Since you lose Pally epic bonus feats almost as fast as you can take COT levels, you need something like 8 COT levels to get the same number of feats as you can get from 2 fighter levels. That many COT levels means you lose a ton of Pally caster levels on your buffs. In addition, taking Fighter at level 1 means you can cheese your wisdom to be exactly 14, which you couldn't possibly do with COT. Why Fallen Angel?You really want a Paladin to have Half-Elf as a base race, in order to take LSA: Listen. The UR subraces that can be Half-Elf are: Dragonblooded, Nobarian, Yukio, Doppleganger, Fallen Angel, Lycan, and Planewalker. Of these, Fallen Angel gets Divine Might and Divine Shield for free, which means two less feats to take, and it gets a bonus to Charisma without a penalty to Wisdom or Strength. Thus making it the best possible choice. In addition, it has FC: Highest which means this build does not get an XP penalty. Why Morningstar?You need a medium martial or simple weapon, so there are lots of choices. I like morningstar because of the double weapon type bludgeoning/piercing. If I recall correctly this means it will apply the best type to whatever monster you are fighting, which will give you a boost in physical damage. Beyond that, there is not really much difference between the medium martial weapons. A 19-20 x2 (like morningstar) will perform about the same, on average, as a 20 x3. Focusing in morningstar will also let you wield the Min tearstar with great results. HOWEVER, I've heard that morningstar is scheduled for a change to 20 x1.5 which is significantly worse. When that change ever happens, you should probably pick something else. Other Build IdeasGet OC/DC from an itemIf you drop natural OC/DC, it frees up five feats, which means you can either: - Drop the 2 fighter levels and pick up Greater Weapon Focus for better weapon AB and smite AB. You can also pick up Extend spell, which is very handy, but note that you will need at least 15 base Wisdom to cast extended level 4 spells. You can get this with Demi x1, or (if you simply can't wait) by picking up a Great Wisdom feat. You will also need an item that grants level 5 slots, such as the POM ring, the abyss belt or a randomized item.
- Or pick up two more fighter levels, to unlock Weapon specialization feats for a big bonus to physical damage at the cost of more Pally CLs and smite AB.
Drop Harper levelsIf you drop the HS levels, you no longer need the fighter levels, so you can go pure Pally for awesome smite AB and the really nice +15 self weapon buff from Clang. If you have a CL aug you can even splash Bard to pick up UMD, which is really handy on a Paladin if you have enough Int for the skill points. This, of course, comes at the rather large expense of losing the 2 extra attacks per round from using moliated boots of the wanderer.
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Post by the1kobra on Oct 29, 2012 12:46:46 GMT
Anticipated QuestionsWhy take 4 Harper levels pre-epic?Because you need all ten Great Smiting feats before level 41, in order to receive all ten strength bonuses. Since you can't take Great Smiting on HS or Fighter levels, you can only take a maximum of two non-paladin levels from level 21-40. Harper Scout is a Tier 2 BAB class which means you have to sacrifice one AB by taking between 3 and 4 HS levels pre-epic. Actually, that part isn't true. It's true you can only take epic great smite on HS or fighter levels, however, this means you only need to take (epic) paladin on the levels which you gain a feat. Since Harper Scouts can take great-charisma with their bonus feats, that means you could get another stat point if you moved HS to epic as well. Since you get 33 Paladin levels, that means you get 7+4 feats in which you get the opportunity to take Great Smite, so this means you can use one other for great CHA and still fit in your great smites. To demonstrate: 21: HS: G-Cha 1, EWF Morningstar 22: Paladin(19): 23: Paladin(20): 24: Paladin(21): Great-Smite 1, +STR 25: HS: 26: HS: 27: Paladin: Great Smite 2 28: HS: 29: HS: G-Cha 2 30: Paladin: Great Smite 3+4 31: Paladin: 32: Paladin: 33: Paladin: Great Smite 5+6 34: Paladin: 35: Paladin: 36: Paladin: Great Smite 7+8 37: Paladin: 38: Paladin: 39: Paladin: Great Smite 9+10 40: Paladin: And there you go, 1 CHA and AB up. Enjoy This also means that you can reduce your starting CHA to 17(19), and put 3 points into CON too... hmm...
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Post by buddhamind on Oct 29, 2012 23:32:56 GMT
Hey, that works! Thanks Kobra!
I'll update the build in a few minutes.
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Post by hfb on Oct 31, 2012 19:43:14 GMT
Other Build IdeasGet OC/DC from an itemIf you drop natural OC/DC, it frees up five feats, which means you can either: - Drop the 2 fighter levels and pick up Greater Weapon Focus for better weapon AB and smite AB. You can also pick up Extend spell, which is very handy,
- Or pick up two more fighter levels, to unlock Weapon specialization feats for a big bonus to physical damage at the cost of more Pally CLs and smite AB.
Drop Harper levelsIf you drop the HS levels, you no longer need the fighter levels, so you can go pure Pally for awesome smite AB and the really nice +15 self weapon buff from Clang. If you have a CL aug you can even splash Bard to pick up UMD, which is really handy on a Paladin if you have enough Int for the skill points. This, of course, comes at the rather large expense of losing the 2 extra attacks per round from using moliated boots of the wanderer. RE: Weapon Specialization. Four fighter levels are needed to get W.Spec. Another fighter lvl is required during epic lvls to get E.W.Spec. For a total of 5 ftr lvls. I believe then the Legendary and Paragon feats are open to you, but I have not tested this personally. (The pre/Epic req.s are tested/reliable as I have personally ran afoul of it and there is documentation to this effect in the nwn wiki page.) RE: HS. Additional cost = the really nice elemental immunity which can make/break gear setups (This is rather more for those looking at the build for ideas/guidance rather than for you Buddhamind). A question: is there any access to the "expected weapon (re-)modifications" that are expected in three days? I have seen a couple of references to this and am curious if one of Funky's (or someone else's) google docs is floating around in some unknown (to me) cloud bank.
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Post by buddhamind on Oct 31, 2012 23:13:30 GMT
A question: is there any access to the "expected weapon (re-)modifications" that are expected in three days? I have seen a couple of references to this and am curious if one of Funky's (or someone else's) google docs is floating around in some unknown (to me) cloud bank. I don't know if the proposed weapon changes are documented anywhere, but Shard's build tool has them in it. That's where I got the 20 x1.5 for morningstar.
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Post by Yojimbo on Nov 1, 2012 12:41:00 GMT
Funky had put out a spread sheet a while back I don't know where it is though. For AC numbers if I am not mistaken only the BG Cania plate has bonus AC but I could be mistaken as I don't have the Pally armor to verify.
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Post by hfb on Nov 2, 2012 4:19:22 GMT
Thanks for the clue.
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Post by Vichya on Nov 3, 2012 10:35:37 GMT
RE: Weapon Specialization. Four fighter levels are needed to get W.Spec. Another fighter lvl is required during epic lvls to get E.W.Spec. For a total of 5 ftr lvls. I believe then the Legendary and Paragon feats are open to you, but I have not tested this personally. (The pre/Epic req.s are tested/reliable as I have personally ran afoul of it and there is documentation to this effect in the nwn wiki page.) This is not entirely accurate. Weapon Specialization requires 4 fighter class levels. But the epic version can be taken on any fighter or CoT level if you have weapon specialization. Legendary and Paragon version only require the epic version and can be taken with any control class. To give an example: you only need 4 fighter levels to get all the specialization feats. In order to do that you have to take the 4th fighter level at an epic level where you also get a feat so you can take both the normal and the epic specialization on the same level. Slingers and Lashes get weapon specialization as a quasi-class bonus feat, so they only need 1 fighter level to take the epic version and can then take legendary and paragon specialization later.
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Post by hfb on Nov 4, 2012 13:04:59 GMT
Thanks for the info for me on the L/P w.spec. And the clarification/expansions.
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Post by buddhamind on Apr 10, 2013 15:01:44 GMT
Added uni non-smiter version to second post in this thread. Apparently Vichya and I think alike when it comes to Paladins. The non-smiting version picks up dexterity, weapon specialization, extend spell, and +1 AB compared to the original. Beware, the new version is untested.
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Post by buddhamind on Feb 22, 2015 16:23:03 GMT
I dropped the first build in this thread from the "recommended" category of the Wiki. It has stability issues-- it gets absolutely creamed by just about anything in Dis or Min (at level 60, 0x Demi, without strongheart). I will be reincarnating soon to the second build on this thread (non-smiter) to pick up Dex and some HP and AC. I might also add some Hide skill to boost party Camouflage.
- Pick up Dexterity to avoid disabling checks - Find a reliable source of conceal - Use a strongheart (will need to borrow it from my Barbarian) - Drop some strength for constitution and/or dexterity
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Post by Torin on Feb 22, 2015 17:34:51 GMT
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Post by chirality on Feb 22, 2015 22:46:43 GMT
Unless you lack hide completely, then after song even a lower-dex/heavier-AC-penalty toon doesn't have too much difficulty (should be at least 20ish hide mod = 5ish%) hitting low-mid30s from CL50 or low 40s w/CL60 camo. That's a lot less than 50, especially after 60+ Listen. But if you're looking to improve Hide anyway, it's at least an option. Don't get me wrong--I'll go to great lengths for just 1% more conceal--but swapping anything other than ring slot more than once (initial buff sequence or at worst post-death) is no fun.
The problem I see with relying on those boots (CL50=5min flat) for HS in particular is a) boot slot and b) even still it's just another 5 minish "required" buff like hsboot which is annoying. And if you end up "wasting" it due various reasons (amni least of which--here i mean stuff like party breaks for afk or core suddenly needing rest etc) then you're basically forced to rest or enjoy not having the buff. Well, at least those boots can do 3/day tho.
Chameleon Jewel ring offers CL45, and Links (ideal choice unless you rely on armor for DW/weapbuff slots) is 50. Swapping armor is clunky indeed but if you only need it once/rest it's not too bad.
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