New and improved divine tank

[Deleted]

So I didn't want to just shelve my lvl 78 x4 blackguard turner. So I tried to build a cha tank with it. That looked good until I realized that the highish wisdom required to cast deathward meant no critical hit immunity. Of course there is the 'bg crit immune ring" but the drawbacks of regular use of that ring were too much for me to want to deal with.

So what to do. Pharlan has inherent +4 wisom, and coupled with the +4 from x2 demi and +16 from asmo gear......a monk splash!

Sans shield and wearing dim maks, wielding a greataxe (for the bonus two handed weapon damage), I made a toon that has an ac of 130, high ab (right around 106 buffed), oc/dc great axe and does respectable damage with full x10 great smite.

This does well in hells though to be honest I have yet to run it much in the abyss. A novelty build maybe, we'll see. But its fun. And there is no sacrifice for crit imm.

None the less, paladin would again be a better choice.

[Lee]

You need 40 base strength to receive crit imm from death ward. Noticing that your build is wearing a robe, I doubt you have enough strength for that benefit.

[desocupado]

Stats

• Both classes need base Wisdom 14 to cast death ward and Base Strength 40 to get critical immunity.
  
• A smiter has really easy time getting to base Str 40, with +10 Str from Greater Smiting X and +4 from LL.
  
• About that AC... Are you using Divine shield? Well, with Cha 50 (Double Demi smiter minimum) - it's 10 shield AC (tough the kb hurts)

Each class against each other
Paladin:
-More Cha bonuses (Cha mod Positive and half that for Physical - Aura of Glory)
-Holy Sword (reliably almost always breaching on hit)
-Single target UEF (handy after dying - tough divine shield also provides Cha mod dodge AC)
-Can grant Crit immunity (Lay hands)
-Greater Smite deals Fire Pos, great for Abyss/Abo (Mag and Div are shared)

BG:
-Easier to splash (BG 29 is enough for all gear) / Paladin isn't considered a splash (Good for 3 levels and Disease/Fear immunity)
-Can run Ely/Rona with full powers
-Use poison (can breach, reduce levels or stats, but costs $$$)
-Significant Sneak Attack damage
-Can Greater Smite Neutral and Good (Neg and Cold are very good elements in hells)
-Can turn good (mildly useful) and Summon strong Fiend/Undead - If pure

Veredict:
Paladin is better suited to abyss and the "metagame". But it does slightly less damage than BG. If you want to increase this difference splashing fighter and grabbing all weapon specialization feats (for a total +20 at PWS) may be suitable.

Alternatives
As a BG, being a Lash like Scourge of Elysium or Bane Knight give you more tangible benefits.
None of the BK builds consider the armor BK "Twice Cursed Armor" (free ESF: Evocation ) or the change to spell penetration. You could have 2 spell schools at good level and still use hands with near maximum DC (for a BK).

There's also my Pure BG (from the former smiterturnerdin) Tenebrous Fall . It's not strong, but rather versatile.

Another option take Divinely Gnome Paladin 38/Rogue 2 as a base, but with Paladin 7 Fighter 4 and BG 29 as level breakdown - Use fighter 1-3 during pre-epic level (for GWF Rapier and Cleave as bonus feats). Then, at epic levels, grab Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon Specialization (You could remove extend spell to make room for a feat - or even 2 Great Charisma feat since you also need LWS - it's up to you) - If you have used a Charisma Artifact, reducing great cha feats by 2 is a solid choice, as this build ges +28 mod without the cha arty.

[Deleted]

Nov 13, 2012 0:15:20 GMT Lee said:

You need 40 base strength to receive crit imm from death ward. Noticing that your build is wearing a robe, I doubt you have enough strength for that benefit.

Base str = 48

8 + 6 (from Pharlan) = 14

14 + 10 (from great smites) = 24

24 +4 from blackguard legendary levels = 28

28 + Great str 3 and 4 = 30

30 + Str + 12 while taking levels = 42

42 + Demi x 2 (4) = 46

46 + 2 paragon str = 48

Here is the level breakdown. I will eventually post the entire build.

1 Paladin
Hide +2
- Armor Proficiency (heavy)
- Armor Proficiency (light)
- Armor Proficiency (medium)
- Assist Other
- Blooded
- Command Targeter
- Divine Grace
- Divine Health
- Divine Might
- Great Strength I
- Great Strength II
- Hardiness vs. Enchantments
- Immunity To Sleep
- Lay on Hands
- Low-light Vision
- Mount Actions
- Partial Skill Affinity (Listen)
- Partial Skill Affinity (Search)
- Partial Skill Affinity (Spot)
- Shield Proficiency
- Weapon Proficiency (martial)
- Weapon Proficiency (simple)

2 Paladin
- Aura of Courage
- Smite Evil

3 Paladin
- Divine Health
- Power Attack
- Remove Disease
- Turn Undead

4 Paladin (Charisma +1)

5 Paladin
- Summon Mount

6 Paladin
- Divine Shield

7 Paladin

8 Paladin (Charisma +1)

9 Paladin
- Extra Smiting

10 Monk
Discipline +13, Hide +4, Listen +13, Tumble +13, Craft Armor +7
- Cleave
- Evasion
- Flurry of Blows
- Improved Unarmed Strike
- Monk AC Bonus
- Stunning Fist
- Weapon Proficiency (monk)

11 Blackguard
- Use Poison

12 Blackguard (Charisma +1)
- Bull's Strength
- Dark Blessing
- Smite Good
- Weapon Focus (greataxe)

13 Blackguard
- Create Undead

14 Blackguard
- Sneak Attack, Blackguard (+1d6)

15 Blackguard
- Greater Weapon Focus (greataxe)
- Summon Fiend

16 Blackguard (Charisma +1)
- Inflict Serious Wounds

17 Blackguard
- Call of the Grave
- Sneak Attack, Blackguard (+2d6)

18 Blackguard
- Improved Critical (greataxe)
- Inflict Critical Wounds

19 Blackguard

20 Blackguard (Charisma +1)
- Sneak Attack, Blackguard (+3d6)

21 Blackguard
- Epic Blackguard
- Epic Character
- Great Charisma I

22 Blackguard

23 Blackguard
- Armor Skin
- Sneak Attack, Blackguard (+4d6)

24 Blackguard (Charisma +1)
- Great Smiting I

25 Blackguard

26 Blackguard
- Great Smiting II
- Sneak Attack, Blackguard (+5d6)

27 Blackguard
- Great Smiting III

28 Blackguard (Strength +1)

29 Blackguard
- Great Smiting IV
- Sneak Attack, Blackguard (+6d6)

30 Blackguard
- Great Smiting V

31 Blackguard

32 Blackguard (Strength +1)
- Great Smiting VI
- Sneak Attack, Blackguard (+7d6)

33 Blackguard
- Great Smiting VII

34 Blackguard

35 Blackguard
- Great Smiting VIII
- Sneak Attack, Blackguard (+8d6)

36 Blackguard (Strength +1)
- Great Smiting IX

37 Blackguard

38 Blackguard
- Great Smiting X
- Sneak Attack, Blackguard (+9d6)

39 Blackguard
- Epic Weapon Focus (greataxe)

40 Blackguard (Strength +1)
Discipline +30, Craft Armor +36

Feats not associated with any level:
Devastating Critical (greataxe)
Disarm (pandect)
Great Cleave
Great Strength III
Great Strength IV
Great Wisdom I
Great Wisdom II
Improved Disarm (pandect)
Legendary Blackguard
Legendary Character
Legendary Skill Affinity (Listen)
Legendary Skill Affinity (Tumble)
Legendary Weapon Focus (greataxe)
Overwhelming Critical (greataxe)
Paragon Character
Paragon Weapon Focus (greataxe)
Power Critical (greataxe)

[Deleted]

Nov 13, 2012 4:02:43 GMT desocupado said:

Stats

• Both classes need base Wisdom 14 to cast death ward and Base Strength 40 to get critical immunity.
  
• A smiter has really easy time getting to base Str 40, with +10 Str from Greater Smiting X and +4 from LL.
  
• About that AC... Are you using Divine shield? Well, with Cha 50 (Double Demi smiter minimum) - it's 10 shield AC (tough the kb hurts)

Originally with both the monk wis, the dex, and divine shield, I had an ac of 140 on paper. But with monk ac, divine shield ac wont work. Not sure if its even listed anywhere, but it just doesn't work.

Each class against each other
Paladin:
-More Cha bonuses (Cha mod Positive and half that for Physical - Aura of Glory)
-Holy Sword (reliably almost always breaching on hit)
-Single target UEF (handy after dying - tough divine shield also provides Cha mod dodge AC)
-Can grant Crit immunity (Lay hands)
-Greater Smite deals Fire Pos, great for Abyss/Abo (Mag and Div are shared)

BG:
-Easier to splash (BG 29 is enough for all gear) / Paladin isn't considered a splash (Good for 3 levels and Disease/Fear immunity)
-Can run Ely/Rona with full powers
-Use poison (can breach, reduce levels or stats, but costs $$$)
-Significant Sneak Attack damage
-Can Greater Smite Neutral and Good (Neg and Cold are very good elements in hells)
-Can turn good (mildly useful) and Summon strong Fiend/Undead - If pure

Veredict:
Paladin is better suited to abyss and the "metagame". But it does slightly less damage than BG. If you want to increase this difference splashing fighter and grabbing all weapon specialization feats (for a total +20 at PWS) may be suitable.

Alternatives
As a BG, being a Lash like Scourge of Elysium or Bane Knight give you more tangible benefits.
None of the BK builds consider the armor BK "Twice Cursed Armor" (free ESF: Evocation ) or the change to spell penetration. You could have 2 spell schools at good level and still use hands with near maximum DC (for a BK).

There's also my Pure BG (from the former smiterturnerdin) Tenebrous Fall . It's not strong, but rather versatile.

Another option take Divinely Gnome Paladin 38/Rogue 2 as a base, but with Paladin 7 Fighter 4 and BG 29 as level breakdown - Use fighter 1-3 during pre-epic level (for GWF Rapier and Cleave as bonus feats). Then, at epic levels, grab Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon Specialization (You could remove extend spell to make room for a feat - or even 2 Great Charisma feat since you also need LWS - it's up to you) - If you have used a Charisma Artifact, reducing great cha feats by 2 is a solid choice, as this build ges +28 mod without the cha arty.

When the reincarnation timer is up, I will probably go pal/bg/monk. For now I am stuck with blackguard.

[Vichya]

Nov 15, 2012 6:23:07 GMT @overdriver said:

But with monk ac, divine shield ac wont work. Not sure if its even listed anywhere, but it just doesn't work.

It says so in the feat description: "[...] Characters with control class Paladin or Blackguard gain Shield AC equal to their Charisma modifier / 2, if they do not receive Wisdom AC from any other source and do not belong to a quasiclass."

You also listed fire/pos damage as good smite types for Abyss and Abo. That's true except that you can no longer use fire smites under water and the next best thing for abos (pos) is rather weak, so I'd say smite damage for a paladin is suited towards Abyss, while blackguard smites are great for Elysium.

[Paradoom]

The divine shield is a very nice boost, but the divine kickback is only good for hells (unless u fight an elite orthon). In the abyss you dont want that at all. There it does little to no damage and you have good chances to heal stuff you realy dont want to, like the wardens in than 3. And the partywide KB is a realy unwanted efect when u get hit.

Sadly you cannot control the kind of KB of the shield to make it at least a little useful.

So overall a good tradeoff with the monksplash in my eyes.

[Vichya]

I never saw the kickback as incentive to take divine shield. The reason I take divine shield is the dodge ac and the divine immunity. The kickback is just an unfortunate side effect.

[Deleted]

Lee cast mass camo last night after a run and on a whim I checked the conceal on this 44%. He informed me that with maxed hide that could be up to 64%? (iirc). hmm. I didn't put much thought into this build other than some notes on a peice of paper during a lull at work. Might have to actually put some thought into it now. I don't think 130 ac and 64% conceal is really enough. I'd like to get that ac up to 140. But how to do it?

A partial answer:

Whether it be feats or ability + at level, I could take 4 away from str and of that put 2 into dex and 1 (feat) into armor skin. That would leave me with a base 40 str, 1 point more of dex ac and the three ac you get from armor skin. So 134 dex, slightly less damage, slightly better dex checks. But what to do with the odd feat?

There is also the matter of the arty I am using. This toon has a bound cha arty. Those two points of cha are almost useless on this toon and I would get another 2 points of dex/1 point of ac if I used a dex arty instead. But a wasted cha arty, blegh. So with the dex arty I would be at 135. 5 points to go. Already wearing strongheart and asmo gear. Already demi x2 bonuses and paragon dex and wis bonuses.

5 points......maybe 135 is enough??

Also, this toon is heavily buff dependent. Amni imm is an absolute requirement. Get amnied and as soon as deathward and divine might runs out your screwed. Less melee damage and no great smite. Great smite coupled with the extra physical damage from divine might are whats puts this past the average barb in damage (though it cannot touch the better barbs).

[Yojimbo]

Armor Skin is only +2 AC and keep in mind how much DEX AC you actually get applied is dependent on your Armor's base AC.

[Deleted]

kk so 134 instead of 135 Armor dex ac penalty is not a factor, it wears robes to take advantage of monk wis ac.

[BigStick]

Getting the WIS benefit from the monk splash requires robes, which carries no DEX restriction.

[Deleted]

so divine shield is just a waste on this toon really. thats one feat saved, and combined with that odd point left from taking from str, another 2 points of dex/1 point of ac. Divine might is a free feat on pharlan So back to 135 ac. Still need those 5 points. Three at least.

[desocupado]

Or you could ditch monk, and use heavy armor + divine shield. Assuming Bg cania plate +20 cha and divine shield - Your ac would still be at 130s, no?

[Deleted]

I've tried a few different ways, including what your saying, and it doesn't ad up. You'd need a ridiculously high cha (in the 70s) to make it work without a shield. With heavy armor you only get 8 base ac with 1 dex for a total of ten. Given +20 armor ac bonus thats a total of 28. Dim Mak = 15. Wis = 10. Dex = 14. Altogether 39 as opposed to 28. 11 more ac using robes and monk splash.