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Post by Vichya on Nov 17, 2012 10:52:12 GMT
I'm not entirely sure what your requirements are for the desired build. In your first post you mention a cha tank which indicates that you want to use rapiers, but then you say you use a greataxe. To make AC calculation simple let's split it up a bit: 1.) You get 10 (base) + 2 (armor skin) + 12 (tumble) + 2 (craft armor) + 3x 20 (natural, deflection, dodge) = 86 AC 2.) On top of that you can get armor base ac, shield base ac, armor bonus ac, shield bonus ac, dex, wisdom to AC. (not all at once but these are your potential sources). To get 140 AC as you said you need 54 AC from these. Some options are: 1.) Monk splash: +15 (armor bonus) + dex + wis = 54. So you need a combined 39 ability modifier on dex and wis, or 37 if you want to rely on girding. Quite unrealistic if you ask me. 2.) Two-handed weapon, divine shield for shield AC: armor base ac + armor bonus + 2 (paladin/bg cania armor) + dex bonus (capped) + cha/2 = 54. The first four components are 8+18+2+3 = 31 AC (33 with girding) for heavy armor or 4+18+10 = 32 AC (34 with girding) for medium armor. Light armor could have more but I don't think you will have enough dex to fully make use of it. That means to get 140 AC you need at minimum 20 shield AC, i.e. a charisma modifier of 40 which is also quite unlikely. I think in order to get to that kind of AC you either have to use a shield or make the stat that gives you AC also give you AB, e.g. quarter staff and intuitive attack with monk splash. My paladin build uses armor and shield and gets 134 AC without girding, which at least puts you in close proximity to 140 with it.
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Post by desocupado on Nov 17, 2012 18:20:41 GMT
I think he wants to wield a two-handed weapon, without being a Half-Eladrym rapier wit toon.
AC - with divine shield + BG plate / Strongheart / Double-demi 10 - base 20 - natural (strongheart) 6+18+2 - armor modifer (cania BG) 5 - dex modifier 20 - deflection (asmo thing) 20 - dodge + haste 12 - tumble (depends on skill level) 2 - armor skin 10 - shield modifier (divine shield cha 50 - a regular value for smiters at double demi and +16) 2 - skill modifier (craft armor) Total 127 // +2 from guirding (maybe +4 if it works with divine shield, which i don't think it does without the slot item) +1 from CA (if you use a CA pandect)
If your wisdom gets to 25 at 75, you should take Planar Turning + Evil Domain at paragon levels -You can use "!opt turnsmite" and enjoy base TR 57 for stunning outsiders
If you really want to be two-handed BG, either go soak route with BaneKnight or Rapier with with Half-Eladrym. If you have your old class combo - BG/Cleric/Monk - You could make a battle cleric instead.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 18:32:17 GMT
I'm not entirely sure what your requirements are for the desired build. In your first post you mention a cha tank which indicates that you want to use rapiers, but then you say you use a greataxe. To be more clear: I had a level 78 blackguard turner. I got tired of playing it. I wanted to reincarnate it into a cha tank. The problem with reincarnating it into a cha tank was inevitably low ac and expensive critical hit immunity. So I cam up with a smiter blackguard build that used a two-handed weapon to do the final reincarnation to. That two-handed weapon, robe-wearing, final reincarnation is what I am using now, and what the thread is about. The character name is .Abaddon. The name of the thread is "The New and Improved Divine Tank" because for me the build is superior to other divine tank builds I have tried in that is delivers about the same damage as a two-handed weapon barb, or a staffy, without giving up much at all on defense. Others come with builds that are probably better, but I don't see them posted. The posted builds are great, I just don't see the builds of the people I see in game playing them. Ok here is the exact armor class breakdown on this build as it is now: Base: 10 Dexterity: 14 Wisdom: 16 Armor: 0 + 14 = 15 Shield: 0 Dodge: 20 Deflection: 17 Natural: 20 Tumble: 12 Size: 0 Other: 3 Total: 127 So 129 with girding. The base str is 48. That is 8 over what it really needs to be. That can go into dex for 4 more ac to make it 133. I can also lose PWF great ax and powercritical and pick up 2 more points of dex which would ad another point of ac. 134. The reason deflection is not 20 is because I am wearing styxwalkers for amni immune. Amni immunity is critical on this build. If/when I find an amni immunity item that is not boots I will switch to asmo gear for deflection ac and pick up 3 more points of ac, to make it 137. I don't need divine shield, and there is probably another feat I can scrap for 2 more dex and another point of ac. Leaving it at a final ac of 138. 138 ac with 64% conceal isn't too bad for this build I think. And I am sure I can come up with a way to bump up that ac by 2 more points.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 18:46:33 GMT
I think he wants to wield a two-handed weapon, without being a Half-Eladrym rapier wit toon. AC - with divine shield + BG plate / Strongheart / Double-demi 10 - base 20 - natural (strongheart) 6+18+2 - armor modifer (cania BG) 5 - dex modifier 20 - deflection (asmo thing) 20 - dodge + haste 12 - tumble (depends on skill level) 2 - armor skin 10 - shield modifier (divine shield cha 50 - a regular value for smiters at double demi and +16) 2 - skill modifier (craft armor) Total 127 // +2 from guirding (maybe +4 if it works with divine shield, which i don't think it does without the slot item) +1 from CA (if you use a CA pandect) If your wisdom gets to 25 at 75, you should take Planar Turning + Evil Domain at paragon levels -You can use "!opt turnsmite" and enjoy base TR 57 for stunning outsiders If you really want to be two-handed BG, either go soak route with BaneKnight or Rapier with with Half-Eladrym. If you have your old class combo - BG/Cleric/Monk - You could make a battle cleric instead. Why do either of the above when I can get 138 ac and 64% conceal on the build and still pass 100k (150, 250) damage per run? If I start posting damage logs after runs, please don't anyone take it like bragging- others are much much better at this than me. The point will be to just demonstrate what this does. Alternatively, can be hgx save run stat summaries in logs? That is really what I need to do to mae a really legit decision on this. That and absorb the info you guys are giving me (which is appreciated).
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Post by cjmills2069 on Nov 17, 2012 18:50:12 GMT
Any chance of getting this build posted? And any way to work it to open or secret? I like the concept...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 18:52:04 GMT
btw desco, I do plan on making a battle cleric, but not with this. The redo week for this is up and the new class breakdown does not include cleric. I'll put more thought into the batlle cleric. But to be honest, this is not a core. There is always either one or two great tanks in party or a slew of fodder with low dps, but not always a bard, caster-cleric, druid etc. So I don't want to go crazy making a bunch of tanks when I will probably be playing/making the other classes much more often.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 18:59:22 GMT
Any chance of getting this build posted? And any way to work it to open or secret? I like the concept... I'll post the build soonish I am glad you like the concept. Really staff masters and barbs (and certain staff monks) really dominate the server in terms of the "kind of tank you really want on a run", good defense, high dps. Other classes are kind of left behind. I got a control class to demi x4, level 78, and close to a prince fight. I didn't want to give up on it and do what everyone else does (most most do lol) so I made this. About the open subby, the drawback with the build is that it almost requires pharlan. (+6 str, +4wis, +4cha/divine might). It also leans heavily on demi bonuses and demi gear. None the less, when I have this build (with pharlan) documented, I will work on an open subby alternate to post here.
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Post by cjmills2069 on Nov 17, 2012 19:08:17 GMT
Okay great ;D thank you
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Post by desocupado on Nov 18, 2012 2:04:28 GMT
I think he wants to wield a two-handed weapon, without being a Half-Eladrym rapier wit toon. AC - with divine shield + BG plate / Strongheart / Double-demi 10 - base 20 - natural (strongheart) 6+18+2 - armor modifer (cania BG) 5 - dex modifier 20 - deflection (asmo thing) 20 - dodge + haste 12 - tumble (depends on skill level) 2 - armor skin 10 - shield modifier (divine shield cha 50 - a regular value for smiters at double demi and +16) 2 - skill modifier (craft armor) Total 127 // +2 from guirding (maybe +4 if it works with divine shield, which i don't think it does without the slot item) +1 from CA (if you use a CA pandect) If your wisdom gets to 25 at 75, you should take Planar Turning + Evil Domain at paragon levels -You can use "!opt turnsmite" and enjoy base TR 57 for stunning outsiders If you really want to be two-handed BG, either go soak route with BaneKnight or Rapier with with Half-Eladrym. If you have your old class combo - BG/Cleric/Monk - You could make a battle cleric instead. Why do either of the above when I can get 138 ac and 64% conceal on the build and still pass 100k (150, 250) damage per run? If I start posting damage logs after runs, please don't anyone take it like bragging- others are much much better at this than me. The point will be to just demonstrate what this does. Alternatively, can be hgx save run stat summaries in logs? That is really what I need to do to mae a really legit decision on this. That and absorb the info you guys are giving me (which is appreciated). ACWell seeing numbers, the monk splashed build doesn't get any ac over a a Cania Plate + Divine shield Str-Smiter. I'm not saying, that your build is without merit, you got the same AC without the divine shield kickback and probably pass more dex checks. Comparison to other classesBarbarians and Staffmasters (and perhaps monks) are really much stronger better than the others classes. The 2-handed 50% boost was too strong in comparison to anything else (it made dual-wielding nearly pointless for non-dexters). Well, you can try to make a rapier wit smiter, if you really want to join the high dps club. Another options is using 2 extra attacks from BK's tenser's transformation. Nevermind Quasi classes don't get divine shield AC. Myself, I'd say BG need a new class secret to get strong (Free Planar Turning would be my choice). Or maybe some extra spell casting abilities. What to doWell, what we can do is trying to play by the strengths of Blackguards: - Smite anyone - including neutral and good
- Great saves (and +4 Cha at 60)
- Wear heavy armor (with good Physical immunities)
- Use divine might for some nice boost in physical damage (30 extra physical is no joke if your weapon can pierce enemy's soak)
- Get a reliable Critical immunity (thus not requiring Parry)
Also you can do random stuff like: - Summoning (kinda meh after the nerf)
- Persuading/taunting (it's quite handy, since Bard and Rogue are the only other class who likely to Persuade)
- Debuff SR (bestow curse is quite useful in a pinch)
- Turning (well you've deemed this not so useful, but i find the stun a nice plus)
- Freedom of movement (I love move speed myself)
Trying to make BG what they aren't won't get us anywhere. As a full-time turner you felt lackluster compared to a cleric. Then this is cut out. As a smiter you feel a bit weak dps and defenses-wise. Maybe you could focus more on defense instead or choose something else. Well, you can do something different. A Lash of Hatred is always welcome in any party (it isn't about selfish dps tough). BK is fun, if you are into that kind of gameplay.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 5:46:48 GMT
Thanks for the thorough remarks deso, but I don't see anything specific about why I should change this build. 138ac, 64% conceal, good ab, good damage. Logs are called for, and I'll start posting them. I DO play my cleric a lot more (core class) so don't expect updates every day. However, everytime I play the bg I will log and post it here.
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Post by Vichya on Nov 18, 2012 7:26:51 GMT
Ok, I see what kind of build it is. I had a similar one planned using weaponmaster and lowering str to the minimum to get crit immunity and putting the free points in dex and wisdom for more AC.
It certainly won't be a build for new players or for new characters as both its AC and AB are rather low. Demi iterations and paragon levels take care of these problems of course.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 10:27:49 GMT
Demi + demi gear + paragon is a staggering 8 additional points to every stat, 10 for that stat one takes an arty for. It puts building demi toons into a whole diferent world than building LL/hells toons. None the less I will try to come up with a reasonable facimile for non-demi toons- keeping the control class and basic theme is pretty important for the lesser version of a character that one will eventually reincarnate into its greater counterpart. side note: it is shocking to me that all of the above + pharlan + great smite 10 adds up to a potential + 72 str from the original starting ability score. (pharlan 4+ great smite 10+ 20 level bonuses+ 4 blackguard ll bonuses + 10 great str feats + 4 double demi + 16 demi gear + 2 paragon levels + 2 arty. If using salamander that could get to 74. Salamander + 4 levels of rdd would make that 78. Start with a mere 8 str and that puts you at 86 No good reason to do that, but the point is just that there are so many good sources of str that very little has to really be put into the stat its self to gain adequate str (40 base anyways). Leaving a potential 22 ability points to play with on the other abilities.
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Post by desocupado on Nov 18, 2012 12:06:17 GMT
Ok here is the exact armor class breakdown on this build as it is now: Base: 10 Dexterity: 14 Wisdom: 16 Armor: 0 + 14 = 15 Shield: 0 Dodge: 20 Deflection: 17 Natural: 20 Tumble: 12 Size: 0 Other: 3 Total: 127 So 129 with girding. The base str is 48. That is 8 over what it really needs to be. That can go into dex for 4 more ac to make it 133. I can also lose PWF great ax and powercritical and pick up 2 more points of dex which would ad another point of ac. 134. The reason deflection is not 20 is because I am wearing styxwalkers for amni immune. Amni immunity is critical on this build. If/when I find an amni immunity item that is not boots I will switch to asmo gear for deflection ac and pick up 3 more points of ac, to make it 137. I don't need divine shield, and there is probably another feat I can scrap for 2 more dex and another point of ac. Leaving it at a final ac of 138. 138 ac with 64% conceal isn't too bad for this build I think. And I am sure I can come up with a way to bump up that ac by 2 more points. I was looking at the 127 without discarding more Str or putting a deflection artifact. I see now. Great AC. I'd give up on styxwalkers (3 difference is too much - Gaze into the Abyss + The Serpent's Coil could suit you better). Another thing, AB and Str, try to keep at least 60-ish strength for Abyss's stat check and something like 105 AB. By the way which is your conceal source? (Hide + Camouflage?) I've tried a few different ways, including what your saying, and it doesn't ad up. You'd need a ridiculously high cha (in the 70s) to make it work without a shield. With heavy armor you only get 8 base ac with 1 dex for a total of ten. Given +20 armor ac bonus thats a total of 28. Dim Mak = 15. Wis = 10. Dex = 14. Altogether 39 as opposed to 28. 11 more ac using robes and monk splash. Nowadays heavy armor gets Base+Dex = 11 (blame the old screenshots) - so: - 6/armor +5/dex + 18/Armor_AC +2/extra (BG plate adds +2). That's 31 - roughly 6 less AC but with 20% extra Physical immunities and a few slots.
- Then you could add divine shield, leaving: 26/armor +5/dex +10/cha (assuming Divine shield and Cha 50) - 41 as opposed to 39 (can still be affected by guird for +2 armor ac)
- With the shield it's still 7 more shield ac (9 with guird)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 18:14:04 GMT
Ok here is the exact armor class breakdown on this build as it is now: Base: 10 Dexterity: 14 Wisdom: 16 Armor: 0 + 14 = 15 Shield: 0 Dodge: 20 Deflection: 17 Natural: 20 Tumble: 12 Size: 0 Other: 3 Total: 127 So 129 with girding. The base str is 48. That is 8 over what it really needs to be. That can go into dex for 4 more ac to make it 133. I can also lose PWF great ax and powercritical and pick up 2 more points of dex which would ad another point of ac. 134. The reason deflection is not 20 is because I am wearing styxwalkers for amni immune. Amni immunity is critical on this build. If/when I find an amni immunity item that is not boots I will switch to asmo gear for deflection ac and pick up 3 more points of ac, to make it 137. I don't need divine shield, and there is probably another feat I can scrap for 2 more dex and another point of ac. Leaving it at a final ac of 138. 138 ac with 64% conceal isn't too bad for this build I think. And I am sure I can come up with a way to bump up that ac by 2 more points. I was looking at the 127 without discarding more Str or putting a deflection artifact. I see now. Great AC. I'd give up on styxwalkers (3 difference is too much - Gaze into the Abyss + The Serpent's Coil could suit you better). Another thing, AB and Str, try to keep at least 60-ish strength for Abyss's stat check and something like 105 AB. By the way which is your conceal source? (Hide + Camouflage?) I've tried a few different ways, including what your saying, and it doesn't ad up. You'd need a ridiculously high cha (in the 70s) to make it work without a shield. With heavy armor you only get 8 base ac with 1 dex for a total of ten. Given +20 armor ac bonus thats a total of 28. Dim Mak = 15. Wis = 10. Dex = 14. Altogether 39 as opposed to 28. 11 more ac using robes and monk splash. Nowadays heavy armor gets Base+Dex = 11 (blame the old screenshots) - so: - 6/armor +5/dex + 18/Armor_AC +2/extra (BG plate adds +2). That's 31 - roughly 6 less AC but with 20% extra Physical immunities and a few slots.
- Then you could add divine shield, leaving: 26/armor +5/dex +10/cha (assuming Divine shield and Cha 50) - 41 as opposed to 39 (can still be affected by guird for +2 armor ac)
- With the shield it's still 7 more shield ac (9 with guird)
HG is a server requring optimized builds, and my head has been wrapping around the idea that any wasted ability score is a bad thing. So maxing dex to make ac higher (instead of using heavy armor) is a good thing because it also serves the purpose of helping vs certain checks. Many will disagree but I think the days of heavy armor as part of an optimized gear set/build are well over. That is unless you happen across a one-in-a-million supremely well randomized and auged heavy armor.
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