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Post by desocupado on Jan 9, 2013 23:06:26 GMT
Well, some weapon types are underused either due other much better options or lack of interesting features so here a couple of ideas to improve them: - Wind Fire Wheel - (19-20/x2) - Could grant Shield AC (Dex mod - Cap at 10)
- Lance - (19-20/x4) - Increased Critical threat and multiplier to make it better than a Heavy Pick (Can't be a WoC to balance it) - Require Exotic Weapon proficiency
- Mercurial Greatsword - (20/x3) - Deals Slash and bludgeoning (it's a really heavy sword, so it's not just it's edge that damages) - Require Exotic Weapon proficiency
- Falchion - (18-20/x2) - Increased Threat would make it comparable to Great Sword.
- Heavy Flail (19-20/x2) - Deal P+B, changed into a two handed morningstar
- Maul (19-20/x3) - Gets the same threat as G.sword (and the old Heavy Flail)
- Trident (20/x3) - Adds Str/Dex mod to CW (providing a slight boost in AB)
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 10, 2013 9:30:40 GMT
This is the full list of weapon edits that has been planned for years now. The holdup is the iteration edits, which require some very extensive and complicated engine hacks: Click MeFunky
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Post by gandoron on Jan 10, 2013 15:48:22 GMT
Heavy pick and merc GS pown for CRAZY crits. for heavy pick, you need to get a lot of bonus attacks to make up for the low iteration, HS would work well.
-G
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Post by desocupado on Jan 10, 2013 23:57:06 GMT
Nice tableHaha I didn't think you could use fractions for multipliers. Nice work. -With that table looks VERY well balanced. Double weapons are back to the top they deserve to be (requirement: Base 15 Dex and 4 feats make it worth the cost). -I wonder if the table take in account the cumulative effect of Extra attacks and two-handed damage bonus (look at harper monks, staffmaster with CL55+ tenser's and Barbarian Harpers with their glitchy shields)... Different weapon choicesMy early suggestions were aiming for diversity. - Double damage types on Heavy Flail and Mercurial Greatsword would have a great appeal, even with lower critical attacks. Greatsword and Warhammer are too similar to them.
- Wind Fire Wheel with shield AC could make non-monk dexters work better (maybe it shouldn't stack with wisdom ac).
- The Trident vs Spear is a bit boring (if large toons can dual wield Spears but not tridents, maybe they could be turned into huge size as well)
Ranged weaponsBut, Ranged weapons still need a HUGE buff (Maybe increasing threat range and adding OC/DC in set items for LL areas). --While ranged weapons looks like a huge advantage in the paper, Characters with ranged weaponry tend to be both lousy Tanks and/or Damage dealers.
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Post by chirality on Jan 11, 2013 0:00:50 GMT
-I wonder if the table take in account the cumulative effect of Extra attacks and two-handed damage bonus (look at harper monks, staffmaster with CL55+ tenser's and Barbarian Harpers with their glitchy shields)... Good question. Speaking of which--how does the two-hander damage bonus line up with the "weapon edits"? Will this be left the same? Changed? What sort of tweaks to the table are you thinking of now that a bit more time has passed? Or none?
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Post by gandoron on Jan 11, 2013 0:41:22 GMT
i don't believe it does any complex math. funky used a standard % increase for 2 damage types, dual hand etc. I built a xls about 2 years ago that does discrete math for all the calculations. I can share that later.
-Graham
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 11, 2013 1:31:10 GMT
Haha I didn't think you could use fractions for multipliers. Nice work. You can't, yet. That's another of the required engine hacks, beyond allowing iterations other than 3 and 5. Yes, it accounts for 2-hander damage bonus: Items used two handed gain 1.5 to all damage output; weapons smaller than your character receive (Str Mod / 2) to damage rather than (Str Mod) We didn't attempt to account for additional attacks beyond the iteration ones, because at the time, they continued to drop in ab, rather than using top ab, if memory serves. That's another tricky engine issue. I don't remember why we made them identical, when trident requires martial. There's still edits to ammo planned, to bring them more into line with other weapon damage bonuses, unless those got done under the radar when I wasn't looking. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 11, 2013 1:38:25 GMT
i don't believe it does any complex math. Didn't we have this discussion then? I seem to recall our table being more, not less, discriminating. I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'complex' math, but a LOT of calculations went into arriving at values for iterations, etc. I don't see how you could use anything else for 2 damage types. That was based on the physical immunity/resistance profiles of our critters, which took a considerable amount of number crunching. Funky
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Post by desocupado on Jan 11, 2013 2:34:15 GMT
i don't believe it does any complex math. Didn't we have this discussion then? I seem to recall our table being more, not less, discriminating. I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'complex' math, but a LOT of calculations went into arriving at values for iterations, etc. Yeah. Basically two-handed should decrease iteration by 1 instead of 2. (if i got how the system works) (on unrelated notes: kama family could get 1,5x Crit to make up for iteration 3)
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 11, 2013 3:04:07 GMT
Two-hander has no bearing on iterations, so far as I can think of. 'Iteration' refers to how frequently attacks proc, and is labeled by the number of each ab drop for each attack. 5 is the default, resulting in 4 attacks per round at max ab. Monks, by contrast, get 3, for a total of 6 attacks. Two handing is much simpler, giving fixed and reducible penalties to all attacks (-4 mainhand and -8 offhand). Or, if by two-hander you mean a single weapon two-handed style, it's again a simple multiplier unaffected by iterations. That engine hack adding the two-handed damage a little less than a year ago was the only thing from that table implemented thus far, though I don't remember if we tweaked it during implementation.
Funky
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Post by desocupado on Jan 11, 2013 5:08:00 GMT
Two-handed clarification Every time i type "two-handed" I mean single weapon one size larger. I try to call the other style "two-weapons" or "dual-wielding".
Iterations concept confusion I see. I was looking at the % number on iterations. I tough it was a raw damage multiplier (like the 150% from "two-handed"). The +50% difference seemed like a decrease of 2 in the iteration value. I had gotten confused here earlier. I thought it was just a damage multiplier.
Iterations as number of attacks So iterations will make weapons get different amount of attacks? That's pretty interesting (tough it seems a pretty hard thing to modify indeed). Isn't this a matter of using a similar change like Xbows have? (i.e. "iteration 3" is +2 attacks while "6" is one less attack per round?)
However getting extra attacks with High Iteration weapons seems to give the largest boost, no? (i.e. 2 extra attacks equals +50% damage if you have just 4 attacks. But with 7 base attacks it's +29%) -Monk note: They should get 1 + 20/3 = 7 not 6, no?-
Raw damage multiplier alternative Maybe using iteration as a damage multiplier value this would be simpler to balance/implement, no? This way the iteration desired value won't scale with number of attacks.
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Post by KnightErrant on Jan 11, 2013 5:34:25 GMT
Iteration refers to the decreasing chance to hit in each attack/flurry per round. Every non monk toon and weapon is currently set at -5 per attack...expressed on your character sheet as "example" --Attack Bonus: 100/95/90/85. Monks get -3 iteration with fists and when wielding weapons designated as "Monk Weapons"...(Kama, Goad, Nunchaka, Quarterstaff and Shurkin atm iirc) "example"--Attack Bonus: 100/97/94/91/88.
As you can see from the above example this can have a HUGE difference in the number of attacks likely to land on on a mob in a given round.
KE.
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Post by desocupado on Jan 11, 2013 14:45:30 GMT
Iteration refers to the decreasing chance to hit in each attack/flurry per round. Every non monk toon and weapon is currently set at -5 per attack...expressed on your character sheet as "example" --Attack Bonus: 100/95/90/85. Monks get -3 iteration with fists and when wielding weapons designated as "Monk Weapons"...(Kama, Goad, Nunchaka, Quarterstaff and Shurkin atm iirc) "example"--Attack Bonus: 100/97/94/91/88. As you can see from the above example this can have a HUGE difference in the number of attacks likely to land on on a mob in a given round. KE. Then keeping the balance where it is at now, sticking with the 5 progression for all non-monk weapons is simpler, no? And to use use extra attacks like the ones crossbow get - if it's possible to decrease the amount of attacks as well it would be perfect. Ranged weaponsWell if it easy to change to iteration between 3 and 5, maybe ranged weapons could always use 3 instead of 5 - since they need a boost anyway. Weapon diversity:Could one of the underused wepaons have somthing like a +3 AB bonus stacking with everything?
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Post by KnightErrant on Jan 11, 2013 15:46:07 GMT
The main problem with handing out more free/extra attacks is that, afaik from reading and testing, the engine puts all free attacks in one separate stack. So it looks like this...more or less--using 100 AB as an example again--....Free attacks: Haste 100, Harper Scout Boots 95, Harper Scout Boots 90, Divine Power 85, Flurry for Monk Weapon 80, etc.. engine is actually capped at 10 ? so even if your entitled to more somehow they won't trigger iirc...adding more free/extra attacks at -25 or more to hit would seem fairly pointless ?
iirc the idea behind changing some iterations on weapons was to give some that do "blah" damage a better chance to hit more often and make a few that can deliver devastating hits but are harder to hit with as often...a -7 iteration would give a line that got ugly fast-- Attack Bonus: 100/93/86/79.
KE.
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Post by desocupado on Jan 11, 2013 16:51:42 GMT
Is it a bad thing if extra attacks is a WM splash is better for some weapons and Harper boots (or CL 55 Tenser's/Divine Power) is best for others?
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