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Post by chirality on Jun 19, 2013 17:11:59 GMT
That is a very novel, unique and interesting idea.
To me it sounds like a road to aggravation-land though. It's bad enough to find crappy BURs that no one wants and have little trade value (I don't buy anymore the "this bad item has value for brand-new player, this is BS, they want the good stuff too), but it'd be really bad to have a bunch of fractions of BURs. Maybe I'm visualizing your idea a bit differently than you conceive it but what I'm seeing would be something I would never, ever, ever want to deal with. And what happens to value of real BUR subs that are still stockpiled and/or found?
In some ways this reminds me of the possibility of collecting tokens which would be used to "cash in" for something desirable such as a sub book. I think I read at some point in the past someone(s) suggesting that.
I really like the idea of pages --> book. That's pretty cool. I just don't like the idea of looking for not just one needle in a haystack but one needle each in 5 different haystacks, or 5 needles in one haystack. "I've got pages 1-3 HC, LF pg 4 or 5 , FT pg 2 Ril pg 5 Brownie"
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Post by tank on Jun 19, 2013 18:02:16 GMT
I think a pages specific to actual subs adds too much rarity to it as you said. Perhaps you have to collect 5 pages, then a set loot specific to a subrace to combine them? adds another use for the sage in town anyways
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Post by Yojimbo on Jun 19, 2013 18:30:44 GMT
I still take mediocre BURs and I been here a while because if I don't have something better to fit the gap it fills then something is often better than nothing its just that it is easier to find a great UR to use in place of a bad to mediocre BUR when it comes to gear when it comes to subraces it really varies I have at times chosen a UR or Secret over a BUR simply because it worked so much better than what ever BUR(s) I had available other times I wait for the BUR races and sometimes I will build on a BUR just to build the toon because it works well enough w/o being the "right" subrace. I find that many of the "bad" subs just have unseen potential outside the norm or intention. A good example is Furchin is often viewed as bad as its not even that spectacular for a Slinger when compared to several other BUR subs however it actually make for a fairly solid BUR Theurge and is easily attainable enough that its a great way to build, run, and play a Theurge w/o having Drow Noble or Stargazer and is better than Svifneblin. Spelljammer is definitely outclassed by many other races for a Wizard which is already outclassed by most Sorcerers and Palemasters on top of it many people are not fans of small sized casters due to the gear limitations but it will make a suitable Gnomish Inventor, regardless of the flaws of the QC, though often failing before others but if faced with building your GI today or holding out for a Half-Fiend race I don't think its worth holding out so long as reincarnation is an option. I think some tweaks to the "bad" subs could be made but also changes could be made to intended classes that might add an advantage to an otherwise disadvantaged race.
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Post by chirality on Jun 19, 2013 20:57:34 GMT
Furchin does suck. Jammer does not make a good GI. Even if GI was good in the first place it wouldn't make jammer worth having. Even if slinger was good it wouldn't make Furchin worth having. Furchin is okay but furchin theurge? lmao. Jammer sucks, period, for everything. Yes it's better than nothing....but that completely misses the point. I don't understand why the subrace was created in the first place. What was it supposed to be for? It really baffles me. Or was it released before Genie? If so then it makes sense, but in that case that drives straight to my point: too many BUR subs, multiple subs competing for the same role with a clear winner. In effect there's actually sub-tiers of BURs in which you have crappy ones and good ones. I really can't stand the fact that all subs of the same tier are not created equal. It's a silly situation that really detracts from the game.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 19, 2013 22:55:22 GMT
I think Tank's suggestion has merit. Perhaps the number and type of pages or McGuffins collected could determine the type and quality of available races. For example two might be sufficient for Furchin while ten would be required for Rad Gen.
Such a system would make BURs more accessible while still requiring players to earn them.
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Post by chirality on Jun 20, 2013 1:57:13 GMT
I don't think further complicating the system is a good solution to anything. If we're forced to come to the point of literally applying a pre-market value to different BUR subs then why not just nip it in the bud and make these races stop sucking so bad? If there wasn't multiple BURs subs of varying desirability for different roles then it would go a long way toward making people happier. It's pretty wearisome to continually see the same apologist arguments about "good luck getting koly, nub, but at least you can be happy with furchin". That's a load of smelly poo. Rad Gen, HC, Koly, these are basically XRs already. Why should new players be happy with throwaway BUR subs that vets don't want, when they drop with the same frequency as the desirable ones? "You're never gonna find HC but you can get FA, that's good enough"
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Post by hfb on Jun 20, 2013 2:37:35 GMT
"...that's good enough" needs only be followed w/ "for now" to have that sentence read perfectly, for as long as one plays a game. As soon as you run out of "for now" then you have problems. HG keeps the "for now" coming and it sounds like we're in for a big dose of more...
In any case, as a newb, something IS better than nothing and what is more having something to strive for while ratcheting yourself into position to actually get there, say w/ FA, is all part of the fun. It is good to want things, BURs no less than stonghearts and ego items that aren't on corrosive freezes.
I would like to put a +1 on the set loot BUR subrace book idea. I do not like the numbered/serial pages for the reason Chirality indicated. I would not mind needing several bits to make up a book. I would suggest putting one of the "pages" in the last 4 runs before Nessus. Nessus runs are fairly common; not nearly as much for Cania and its precursors.
Any move in this direction may be more prudent after more time passes with the newly improved BUR drop rate. Also, a new loot table/drop method is perhaps not the coolest thing the Dev Squad could be chewing through. Finally, pulling the BURs from the current loot table may well have unforeseen consequences or adding this bit to the existing BUR drop rate may also result in the same.
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Post by Torin on Jun 20, 2013 5:29:14 GMT
Please think on the -HC- players. One page per Nessus run is not doable for us.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 20, 2013 9:55:10 GMT
Torin is correct. HC players form an important component of the HG community. Any proposed reform must take them into account.
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Post by tank on Jun 20, 2013 13:06:07 GMT
was just spit-balling really, but I'm worried about the XR subraces for when they are released, there is so many of them and the fact that they are so build specific is gonna make them extremely rare, with only a very small fraction of the population currently capable of actually obtaining them... if the drop rate is anything close to the BUR subs currently, could take 5 years to see a book that you actually need.
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Post by Fade on Jun 20, 2013 14:00:16 GMT
Ya know, after reading Aubricker's comments a few posts back I had to go look when I created my forum account. I started a couple months before I joined the forum. By that I can guess I've been on HG a year and some change.
One thing I have to say is that Aubricker's post was spot on. I'll be brief, but I will say that the gap between newer players and vets concerning BURs is enormous. I don't think a lot of people understand this fact. It's one of the few negative things I've noticed in my time here. I think Laser's follow up post is evidence how a low drop rate coupled with 20 plus races has thrown some BUR races completely out reach for newer players. In particular Core Caster BURs. Think about it for a moment.. You've started a new PW and few months after enjoyable play you realize just how big a mountain you have to climb. And no.. this isn't an easy climb. You have to claw your way up by inches. Because honestly.. That's the way is right now.
I've been lucky enough to obtain a handful of BUR races, and all but one of those I've had to buy or trade for. They weren't cheap either. And in the one case that I won a BUR, I won because a generous Vet who rolled directly before me asked if I had the book.. Cool guy in my book. So I'm in the camp that believes that BUR races need to be devalued somewhat. It is important that players be able to carry themselves, and not be carried by more seasoned Vets.
Anyways, moving on. I think Tank's idea has serious merit. The individual pages isn't great, but collecting pages/tokens would be awesome. Another MMO has used a similar system, and I think it worked for a few reasons. It clearly identifies 'handholds' in climbing the mountain. You know you need to do X and Y to get to Z. Also a big plus would be allowing Devs to control availability and over saturation by adjusting price points. This also could be used for a couple other extremely rare items. (We have an Aug vendor, so I don't think this is too far out.) Placing these pages/tokens in Hell runs, perhaps beyond Tia(Not sure how far HCs are at the moment), seems like it would be good. Also, I really think these pages/tokens should be non-transferable. Meaning, you can't trade for them. You have to do the runs. I think making them tradable would trade one problem for another. (Perhaps even making them like tags?)
With new content looming, I think making some type of change on this subject might be a good idea. Placing Abyss, and later content in reach of more players is win win in my book.
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Post by Salek on Jun 20, 2013 14:45:52 GMT
[...] With new content looming, I think making some type of change on this subject might be a good idea. Placing Abyss, and later content in reach of more players is win win in my book. And this can be done by making it easier to get BUR books? In my opinion doing endgame runs like Hells, Abyss and such in a more inclusive way (by all of us) might help more. And I think being at least 2x demi for Abyss might be mandatory nowadays, because with a lower server population one can't expect to get dragged anymore.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 20, 2013 16:19:45 GMT
I agree, Salek. But it does bring up a "chicken-or-the-egg" question. To make a positive contribution on some endgame runs almost requires a BUR. So a player who earns his or her own books must level and tag a toon for the Hells, run until a BUR finally drops, and then roll well in the divide. And then start, level, and tag another toon the class of which might depend on which book dropped OR continue playing until he or she wins a second book and reincarnate.
When we were new, this was not a big issue as BUR books dropped fairly consistently. Now, the two-book requirement for reincarnating into a BUR race is virtually meaningless to many new players.
What troubles me most is the insanely low BUR race drop rate was implemented in response to other veterans unhappy about newbies benefiting from the same system that enabled up to collect so many BUR races. For example, Hell runs always need arcanes, and we all love a new BUR sorc build. But note that every recommended BUR sorc build on WIKI requires Rad Gen. How many Rad Gen books have we seen drop in the last six months? They were exceedingly rare even before the change. It was the last of the older BURs I received,and even then I had to trade well for it. I've been on HG for six years, and I still make weekly Hell and Abyss runs, but I had to trade for Rad Gen. What change does a newbie have? He or she would have better odds investing the family nest egg in lottery tickets.
I've seen parties of good, experienced parties do successful Hell runs with five or so toons because they have the optimal gear and races. These kinds of runs are fun, rewarding, and exciting, but out of reach for newer players who run Desert day after day, joining Hell runs when they can, hoping against hope that a BUR book drops and they win it.
When I was new, a Hell run rarely required more than five minutes to fill. Except for some of the very deep Hell runs, this was true even when we had to do the Hells in order. No longer, and some newer players have no idea what a Abyssal Prince fight is like. I love the Abyss, but face it -- only a small number of players can do Abyss on a regular basis, and we seem to be bleeding vets on a regular basis.
Newbies are the future of HG. We need them. Let's make the game more accessible to them. As for those vets who have every single BUR race who are unhappy at the prospect of more BUR toons on the server? There's nothing preventing them from simply choosing to play open-race toons.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 20, 2013 16:34:11 GMT
When we were new, this was not a big issue as BUR books dropped fairly consistently. Now, the two-book requirement for reincarnating into a BUR race is virtually meaningless to many new players. What troubles me most is the insanely low BUR race drop rate was implemented in response to other veterans unhappy about newbies benefiting from the same system that enabled up to collect so many BUR races. Your posts contain a lot of mistaken information in them, like most of the posts I see complaining about droprates. I guess I can understand the impetus to gather 'evidence' for your position when actual data is hard to get, but it's not doing you any favors. If you think droprates should go up, just say so. Your history is incomplete, and the assumption that new players not having access to BURs is a problem is misplaced. The edits were made because the absurd overabundance of BURs that had been dropping due to a pair of glitches had completely obviated all the other subraces. The contention that you need BUR subs to contribute to the harder runs wasn't even true a few years back, when run difficulty is even higher than it is now. This is especially the case with casters. Funky
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 20, 2013 20:51:54 GMT
Your posts contain a lot of mistaken information in them, like most of the posts I see complaining about droprates. I guess I can understand the impetus to gather 'evidence' for your position when actual data is hard to get, but it's not doing you any favors. If you think droprates should go up, just say so.
Your history is incomplete, and the assumption that new players not having access to BURs is a problem is misplaced. The edits were made because the absurd overabundance of BURs that had been dropping due to a pair of glitches had completely obviated all the other subraces. The contention that you need BUR subs to contribute to the harder runs wasn't even true a few years back, when run difficulty is even higher than it is now. This is especially the case with casters.
Funky[/quote]
Thanks for the information, Funky. I stand corrected.
Buy the way, I think the drop rates should go up.
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