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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 21, 2013 19:48:53 GMT
In all sincerity, Funky, I only sought to inject some humor into the discussion. I was neither trolling nor insulting anyone. I didn't say you were. I said you were being 'cute' with me, which is the closest adjective I could find to describe your post, which was both flippant and lacking in necessary detail. I asked the questions in need of answering. They aren't 'straw men', in any sense of the word. They're what I need to know to evaluate your opinion, which I did take seriously. In point of fact, we ARE likely to increase droprates (slowly, until we find a good spot), but I need a sense of where players feel those rates are at now, and where they feel they should be. I wasn't being dismissive. You are advocating for increased BUR droprates. That's your cause, for the moment at least. It's not even derogatory. Your opinion is in no danger of being dismissed, so long as you actually answer the questions I put to you. Sure. Count the number of BUR books you see drop on runs. If you want to get fancy, figure out the droprate per hour of play. What interests me more, however, is player perceptions. Sure, they're faulty and often wildly inaccurate when it comes to the workings of the game, but at the end of the day they're what matters. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 21, 2013 19:58:52 GMT
After looking at the post in the one about loot drop rates it was mentioned and shown, though I didn't really look at the code, that it seems the odds of a BUR drop being a book, or other BUR consumable, is 1 in 20 perhaps increasing the odds to that even doubling it so it is 1 in 10 would be huge. I would also wonder how difficult it would be to increase the book and other consumable probabilities based on party size I wouldn't take it past 3 out of 20 though I don't think. This is precisely the kind of answer I was looking for, though I think your baseline math is off. There are 108 'normal' BURs - nOtherCount = 108, in other words. Hence, you have a 3/113 chance of getting a racebook on a BUR drop, or about a 2.65 percent chance. We're not interested in 'huge' edits, by the way, so much as we want to gradually increase droprates until we find a happy medium. Feel free to say where you think it should be, but be aware that we're likely to nudge it there over a period. Funky
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 21, 2013 19:58:52 GMT
Chirality, I just finished a Stygia run. A Rilmani book dropped. This is the second Rilmani book to drop in two weeks. Before that, it's been months since I seen a book drop.
Some questions for you, if I may.
1) Roughly how many Deep Hell or Abyssal wand runs do you participate in each month? Just estimate please.
2) Do you ever have difficulty filling these runs?
3) Over a three month period, how many BUR books would you estimate drop in all the Deep Hell and Abyssal runs in which you take part?
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 21, 2013 20:10:13 GMT
Right...so basically what I'm reading is that there is no actual concrete evidence for anything in this thread (lack of bur subs, new players quitting after 40, too hard to grind, taking years to get bur subs). Nor is there actually hordes of players being driven off by lack of BUR subs. The bottom line is that there really is no BUR sub situation to remedy, so there is no reason to brainstorm solutions, let alone claim that the mindset or attitudes of devs or players is contributing to new players becoming hopeless and quitting. The only problem is that the game is old. There is no remedy for that situation. Chirality, Forgive me if I am mistaken, but it seems as if you are suggesting that HG is dying, and you will steadfastly oppose all our suggestions to save it because ... well, just because. If there is indeed no remedy for that which ails HG, why are you so adamantly opposed to every proposed changed. If HG is truly fated to die of old age as you suggest, what harm can result of our trying to prolong its life?
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 21, 2013 20:29:22 GMT
[/quote]In point of fact, we ARE likely to increase droprates (slowly, until we find a good spot), but I need a sense of where players feel those rates are at now, and where they feel they should be.Sure. Count the number of BUR books you see drop on runs. If you want to get fancy, figure out the droprate per hour of play. What interests me more, however, is player perceptions. Sure, they're faulty and often wildly inaccurate when it comes to the workings of the game, but at the end of the day they're what matters.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 21, 2013 20:32:57 GMT
Funky,
Another burning issue you need to address: Make the blasted quote function easier for technophobes like me to use.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 21, 2013 20:47:07 GMT
I could ask for nothing better. I am a huge believer in Karl Popper's argument that lasting and beneficial change best occurs gradually and with the dialectal participation of all sincerely well-meaning individuals. DIALECTIC? WE'VE GOT A COMMIE HERE! BURRRRRRRRN! Actually, I tend to go right to classical conservatism, with Edmund Burke, since it meshes nicely with my schooling in economics and economics and law (where, for example, we discuss the innate value of risk management/leveling (insurance)), as well as the theory of evolution (sudden rapid change is often death to organisms). But yes, nicely put - it all militates toward an understand of human beings as predisposed to gradual change - gentle slopes instead of peaks and valleys. Interesting that Hegelian/Marxist dialectic and market theory (NOT free market theory, mind you) both lead to the same conclusions. Nope. Again, though, it's not the numbers that matter, in the end, so much as it is the level of player satisfaction with the droprate. Funky
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Post by arek on Jun 21, 2013 20:59:28 GMT
Funky, Another burning issue you need to address: Make the blasted quote function easier for technophobes like me to use. (off-topic, posting here to help others who may be having this problem) That's my department, AuBricker. Unfortunately, there's no way that I can find to "break up" a quote using Preview mode, and there's not much I can do about it either. This makes the easiest way to handle breaking up a quote so that you can reply to individual parts is by switching to BBCode mode (click "BBCode" at the bottom of the reply window), and insert the following code wherever you want to insert your replies: [/quote][quote] (note that the /quote is first) After that, you should be able to go back to Preview mode and insert your replies in between the quote sections. I hope this helps. --Arek
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Post by Yojimbo on Jun 21, 2013 21:04:35 GMT
After looking at the post in the one about loot drop rates it was mentioned and shown, though I didn't really look at the code, that it seems the odds of a BUR drop being a book, or other BUR consumable, is 1 in 20 perhaps increasing the odds to that even doubling it so it is 1 in 10 would be huge. I would also wonder how difficult it would be to increase the book and other consumable probabilities based on party size I wouldn't take it past 3 out of 20 though I don't think. This is precisely the kind of answer I was looking for, though I think your baseline math is off. There are 108 'normal' BURs - nOtherCount = 108, in other words. Hence, you have a 3/113 chance of getting a racebook on a BUR drop, or about a 2.65 percent chance. We're not interested in 'huge' edits, by the way, so much as we want to gradually increase droprates until we find a happy medium. Feel free to say where you think it should be, but be aware that we're likely to nudge it there over a period. Funky I took that from Keazer's post hereWell, in hells, a BUR drop is a BUR drop. You'll get a bur item, a bur book or a craft item, although the last 2 just very rarely (about 1 in 20 of one of the two last appearing, per bur). Now it wouldn't be just BUR books getting to the 1 in 10 it would include the craft books but within that the odds of race books in favor over craft books could also be edited.
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Post by chirality on Jun 21, 2013 22:50:57 GMT
Chirality, I just finished a Stygia run. A Rilmani book dropped. This is the second Rilmani book to drop in two weeks. Before that, it's been months since I seen a book drop. Some questions for you, if I may. 1) Roughly how many Deep Hell or Abyssal wand runs do you participate in each month? Just estimate please. 2) Do you ever have difficulty filling these runs? 3) Over a three month period, how many BUR books would you estimate drop in all the Deep Hell and Abyssal runs in which you take part? First of all, on the basis of our friendship and your awesome personality (and the fact that I can't imagine you having a single bad bone in your body), I will assume that your not being sarcastic with these questions. That said, I have to wonder if you actually read my (longass) post earlier. I tried very hard to make it very clear that what I do NOT do is the same runs and content that you (or normal mode players in general) are doing or would be expecting to do. The point I was making is that I do NOT do wand runs or cania runs on any basis, let alone regular. Please re-read my earlier post to understand the point I was making: I do NOT do the type of runs expected to provide BUR subs in great frequency--yet I see them, and if 2-3 players are popping them NOT doing the cool pro vet endgame runs like everyone else, I just don't understand how you guys aren't finding any. Now perhaps the case may be that I'm extraordinarily lucky (highly doubt it). Or perhaps the case is that somehow, the way I spend my playtime is evidently far more productive than normal mode runs? Before logging out earlier, I joined 3 friends in hades and within 10 minutes we had a Drow Noble and well-randomized div mords ring. Before that I did a 2-man zio2 which resulted in zero BUR subs, 2 BURs (nice ur-ward with broken ASF + broken ygrette). Is this just luck? I say it is, because (like I said in earlier post) I have also farmed hades for literally months without seeing a BUR sub, and unlucky periods of 40-50 hours at a time without a single BUR at all. Once again, all I was trying to say is that I'm confused how nearly 10 BUR sub books have been found by a TINY group of players (the same 4-5 players farming in ever-changing permutations) in a couple months, whereas you say you do deep runs on a regular basis and don't see any. I did not mean to make it seem like I thought you were lying or exaggerating; I just don't get it. To answer your questions: a) Zero wand runs per month. Define Deep Abyss? Is this p3 only? Is p2 included in "deep abyss"? Or is Deep Abyss only Prince Fights? I would have to think hard and do some math to give a good answer here, but the answer you're probably looking for is zero I guess. b) Depends, because unless it's tia, I really don't need many players to "fill" a run, and I've never visited abyss with more than 2 other players at a time. again though, the answer you're looking for is "yes", because in case you hadn't noticed, I play hardcore, and if you think you guys have trouble starting runs, take a look at what we're working with For tia, yeah that sucks pretty bad to fill. I really wish it didn't need 5 people but that's for another thread. c) Zero, because I've never seen a BUR sub drop from a hell or abyss run. Others I play with have, but I don't think it's happened in quite a few years (I could ask chain to get a better answer there). However, that doesn't really mean much because I don't do any deep hell runs or deep abyss runs. You're asking questions that aren't really applicable, but as the loot tables show, it shouldn't matter if I'm playing in The Coil or Argent Palace or Banks of the Styx, because BUR zone = BUR zone as best as I can tell, except that evidently Hells has it best off, in which case I have it WORSE off than someone like you who's doing hell runs a lot (again please re-read my earlier post where I try to make the point about larger parties + deeper layers + demi count which should all be increasing your BUR chances vs. mine for any given play hour). Chirality, Forgive me if I am mistaken, but it seems as if you are suggesting that HG is dying, and you will steadfastly oppose all our suggestions to save it because ... well, just because. If there is indeed no remedy for that which ails HG, why are you so adamantly opposed to every proposed changed. If HG is truly fated to die of old age as you suggest, what harm can result of our trying to prolong its life? No, I'm not steadfastly opposing all your suggestions. I'm steadfastly opposing the ones that, well, I steadfastly oppose: dramatically boosting BUR sub droprate, handing out free subs. It saddens me to spend so much time writing such long posts in which I explain WHY I'm opposed to these things and have the end result be "wow he's just a douche who wants the game to die". I don't think these solutions are good. I may well be wrong; but that's just my opinion, and yes I will stand firm by it until something makes my change my mind. The last time free BUR sub tag was brought up I opposed that as well. I opposed summons too, but I guess you could argue that since HG is still here, summons saved it, so I was wrong? The thing that seems to be getting lost in translation is that I'm not really seeing any suggestions to save the game that DON'T revolve around BUR subs. I guess my attempts to mention that get buried in longass posts that no one reads, but it's tiresome and wearisome to see no one care about anything except BUR subs. No one wants to propose anything that doesn't revolve around making BUR subs easier to acquire, both for themselves and for hypothetical "future new players". When I said there was no remedy, I meant there was nothing that can be done to "reverse" the process or "repair" it. Yes, I steadfastly believe that no amount of BUR sub drop tinkering will make more people play this game, or make more new players "not" quit this game. If I'm wrong, so be it, but I have yet to see a single shred of evidence proving otherwise, and as I said in my earlier post, the annals of HG are stock-full of the opposite occurring: it hurts the game by driving players away. If there's some suggestions to save HG that aren't about BUR subs, let's hear it. But then again, that's also extremely off topic, since this thread WAS about BUR subs. So I gave my opinions on BUR subs (I think the droprate is fine) and I gave my opinions on suggestions of making them dramatically easier to get (I don't think it's a great idea).
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 21, 2013 22:57:45 GMT
I took that from Keazer's post Read it again. He was talking about the chances of getting either a racebook OR a craftbook, and he was basically right, 5/113 =~ 4.42%, close to the 5% of 1/20, but 66% higher than the chances of getting a racebook. Funky
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2013 23:18:31 GMT
I did a dm_info_var on all of the subraces on my account and counted the number of subraces I had that were created after the last subrace change (Feb 3, 2013, which has a UNIX timestamp value of 1359849600 for anyone else who wanted to test).
Number of subraces acquired since change: 9
Anarch Cambion Genie Half-Eladrin Half-Guardinal Hound Archon Salamander Zenythri x2
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Post by chirality on Jun 21, 2013 23:37:19 GMT
Maybe my frame of reference is also so out-of-line with others due to normal/hc difference.
I feel like my own BUR sighting are reasonable for what I expect myself to see.
Laser are you feeling gypped? Satisfied? "Meh"?
Does everyone feel completely shorted on BUR subs? If so how many more per (hours of playtime, months of playing at X hours a week etc) should you be getting?
(I swear this is not sarcastic or argumentative I'm just trying to understand where the dissatisfaction is coming from and how much more the droprate needs to be improved before people finally stfu about it once and for all--almost sounds like an alternate universe: HG without BUR sub complaints??? whuh?)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 0:05:12 GMT
That's basically with 1200 hours played running end game runs. I don't particularly care how many subraces drop for me because I don't have any use for them, but I thought it might be a useful thing to measure.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 22, 2013 0:41:19 GMT
Chirality,
I was not asking for a "drastic" increase in the drop rate. I asked that it be increased moderately. And again, I do not see BUR race shortages as the only problem confronting newbies. For example, I find that new players often have difficulty assembling a good immunity ring collection, and I consider that to be a more pressing issue. I addressed the BUR race drop rate simply because that is the topic of this thread.
Forgive me if you thought my questions inappropriate, but I am trying to get a handle on your perspective. Nothing more.
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