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Post by tank on Jun 23, 2013 4:14:27 GMT
When I created this thread, it was by no means selfish. I had gathered information from various other vets who had yet to come by books they still needed. Something seemed out of place when people had been playing(albeit casually) for years and not found the subrace books they needed, to me that's too much of an exaggeration of rarity. Upping the droprate was a temporary solution, there have been great ideas in this thread already on how to change the system so that it's not so insanely random.
But you continue to believe that you(and everyone by extention) should have to deal with insanely rare drop rates just because you want to spend years farming Oinos for books.
And I do believe in rewards based on skill(to an extent, there has to be a certain amount of random drop) - hell, so does the mod when they implement things like prince versions of demon lords. Is it so much to ask that they implement rewards for completing certain challenges with set loot books, or even a substantial increase in chance for books?
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Post by chirality on Jun 23, 2013 5:08:39 GMT
Fair enough.
Keep in mind however that much like your comment about "everyone else by extension", you seem to think that because you thought they were too low, everyone else by extension did as well. I understand gathering the evidence (so to speak) from other (older) players and making an informed decision based on what you hear; if you're hearing everyone complain about it then yeah, something could be wrong. That's exactly what my long humongous post was about--hearing people talk about shifting expectations. I understand if I came off like saying "I think they should be super rare, and because I don't mind spending year after year looking for them, everyone else should as well". That's not at all what I was trying to say; the point was that I had a pretty mistaken impression about how often they should drop. I'm not saying I was deceived or it's anyone's fault but my own for spending too much time on the forums (oh wait that still happens).
But it's important to note that not everyone was complaining. In each and every precursor bur drop thread, there were people arguing the opposite. A fDM who has been playing here for a really long time (I think at the moment one of the "oldest" players that still actually logs in on a very regular basis rather than just lurking on the forums to watch the drama) never really had an issue with the sub drops, and every time this issue would pop up he'd mention ingame how slightly ridiculous he thought it was, and how tired he was of hearing it. I recall other longtime players, most of which who seem to have vanished a while back, also failing to jump on the bur sub drop complaint bandwagon.
I'm not saying everyone should play the way I play, and I'm not saying that everyone should grind for years and years to get things just because I do (I don't by the way, but your point is 100% valid; I know what you mean). But at the same time, you seemed to have taken the opinions of some vets and ran with them when you made this thread; I could likewise say that "you (and everyone else by extension) wants to have BUR subs in 3 months.
Again, I evidently am the odd man out, and after listening to a lot of vet opinions for a couple years now, it seems I mislead myself into thinking BURs were a lot more rare at some point, by design. This clearly is far from the truth. I have no idea what happened in the period between raj's "got em all in a year" to laser's "1200 hrs intense farming for 9 subs", but other than drastically lower population and trading, it seems kind of strange. So sure, please boost the drop rate as much as necessary.
I was afraid, essentially, of making things too easy, too quick, of new players discovering that there isn't much left for them to work for after too short an amount of time; of vets becoming unhappy due to devaluation of their past efforts; of HG losing potential long-term customers after "beating the game" and getting bored. It seems those concerns were unfounded and I was wrong about the whole thing. If BUR sub droprate is driving away players both new and old then clearly it needs to be improved in some way (better %, set drops, whatever).
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Post by Raj on Jun 23, 2013 5:15:26 GMT
That shoudn't be too much of a issue: even after getting all the needed subs there's quite a lot for players to do, look at these dinosaurs still logging in.
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Post by arek on Jun 23, 2013 5:53:49 GMT
I was discussing the need to make the transition into the Hells less painful for newbies with another player yesterday, and he raised a great point. He noted that newbies fresh to the Hells suffer more from the lack of immunity items than they do anything else. He is absolutely correct. Could the Dev team perhaps add lowbie immunity rings similar to the ubiquitous 75%/25% rings we find on many high-level runs? As set loot, they could not be randomized and augmented. They would be of little use to veterans, but a great boon to newbie players while in no way unbalancing the game. They could easily be added to Uro, DB, Desert, and so on. I know it's a harsh run for a new player, but the Pyramid has a complete set of such rings as set drops. Maybe those of us vets who have Pyramid on farm could start putting sets of these together to give people who need them? --Arek
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Post by Raj on Jun 23, 2013 7:18:34 GMT
I was discussing the need to make the transition into the Hells less painful for newbies with another player yesterday, and he raised a great point. He noted that newbies fresh to the Hells suffer more from the lack of immunity items than they do anything else. He is absolutely correct. Could the Dev team perhaps add lowbie immunity rings similar to the ubiquitous 75%/25% rings we find on many high-level runs? As set loot, they could not be randomized and augmented. They would be of little use to veterans, but a great boon to newbie players while in no way unbalancing the game. They could easily be added to Uro, DB, Desert, and so on. I know it's a harsh run for a new player, but the Pyramid has a complete set of such rings as set drops. Maybe those of us vets who have Pyramid on farm could start putting sets of these together to give people who need them? --Arek That, or people could farm pyramid on their own; groups of 3-4 newbies with rare/ur gear should be easy to form at almost any time, instead of going desert/db. If people can't do or don't want to do pyr under those conditions then they won't be willing to do hells with free gear either.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 23, 2013 12:34:45 GMT
I suspect newbies in need of immunity rings might have difficulty in Pyramid.
A lot of this thread has focused on newer players fairly earning that which they gain. If we farm Pyramid and give them the rings, we are defeating the purpose. Using lowbie rings as set loot addresses both these concerns.
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Post by chirality on Jun 23, 2013 20:00:19 GMT
I completely fail to understand why adding new set drop imm rings is even remotely necessary. They drop regularly even in pre-LL areas (often unrand even, depending on the spot). There are absolutely no roadblocks preventing new players from acquiring imm rings in appropriate zones as they work toward and through LLs. The only reason why a player would be suffering unduly from lack of imm rings in a run like DB is that they shouldn't be there in the first place. Being under-geared is only an issue if you're being dragged. Depending on vets to pull you through a run that you don't understand and don't have the gear to manage is a direct hit to the bow of your argument claiming that newbies shouldn't have to depend on a vet to give them imm rings. There is certainly a middle ground and it's certainly not black and white, but it can't be both black and white at once. If your goal is to bring independence and self-sufficiency to a new player, then placing set drop imm rings so that they can easily farm them and participate in runs that they couldn't otherwise survive, seems like a cross-purpose to me.
(I'm not attacking the idea just to attack it--I honestly think it doesn't make much sense; and I'm sorry to come across as demanding some ideas to help the game and then blasting them after you suggest them)
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 23, 2013 23:15:39 GMT
LOL. Chirality, are there any potential changes of which you would approve?
I note you have made over 1,800 posts, and I swear most of them have been on this thread opposing any change.
I respect your abilities, think you a great guy, and consider you a good HG friend, but I remain unable to get a grip on your point of view.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 23, 2013 23:16:52 GMT
A lot of this thread has focused on newer players fairly earning that which they gain. If we farm Pyramid and give them the rings, we are defeating the purpose. Using lowbie rings as set loot addresses both these concerns. Not a terrible idea. If you suggest some placements I'll drop em in, probably as nonrand'd, though we could just put in a few places that spawn a random (but still nonrandomized) ring once a reset. Funky
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Post by Test on Jun 23, 2013 23:35:14 GMT
A lot of this thread has focused on newer players fairly earning that which they gain. If we farm Pyramid and give them the rings, we are defeating the purpose. Using lowbie rings as set loot addresses both these concerns. Not a terrible idea. If you suggest some placements I'll drop em in, probably as nonrand'd, though we could just put in a few places that spawn a random (but still nonrandomized) ring once a reset. Funky Maybe a weird idea but what if the Fire Ring had 100% Fire immunity added, the Passwall/Earth had 100% Acid, the Water had 100% Cold and the Lev has 25% Magic?
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 23, 2013 23:53:21 GMT
A lot of this thread has focused on newer players fairly earning that which they gain. If we farm Pyramid and give them the rings, we are defeating the purpose. Using lowbie rings as set loot addresses both these concerns. Not a terrible idea. If you suggest some placements I'll drop em in, probably as nonrand'd, though we could just put in a few places that spawn a random (but still nonrandomized) ring once a reset. Funky Funky, off the top of my head, I think Uro, DB, Thids, and Sissy mini-bosses or bosses would be ideal. One of the Desert bosses could perhaps drop one. I am certain other players have better suggestions as to good drop locations.
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Post by chirality on Jun 24, 2013 0:45:37 GMT
LOL. Chirality, are there any potential changes of which you would approve? I note you have made over 1,800 posts, and I swear most of them have been on this thread opposing any change. I respect your abilities, think you a great guy, and consider you a good HG friend, but I remain unable to get a grip on your point of view. It's beyond me how you can simultaneously argue two competing theories on game development and newbie retention. On the one hand, we shouldn't be forcing newbies to rely on vets to hook them up with imm rings and sub books. On the other, we should be implementing new procedures to provide these items so they don't have to farm for them in the traditional manner. On the one hand, farming a run like Pyramid to collect rings to hand out to a newbie is a bad idea, because it makes the newbie too dependent on your generosity and leaves them feeling like they didn't accomplish it themselves. On the other, it's a good idea to place easily-obtainable rings to help them survive runs that they can't appropriately survive without. I'm not categorically arguing with every idea. It just happens that these ideas are things I'm opposed to. If you want to paint me as a naysayer and an obstinate so-and-so who stubbornly refuses to let the game evolve, so be it; but I just don't think that reducing time investment in the game is the only solution to prolong the life of the game. Because that's what all these ideas amount to: reducing the time necessary to meet benchmark expectations. You want to do tia? make sure you can survive the fire! you want to do db? make sure you understand what kb is, which mobs do which kb, and have the rings to survive it. Crap, you can't just have 2 rings that cover all the kb? Guess you better learn to swap them around as needed! I understand that the overall climate amongst gamers and games may be shifting, and I understand that making things easier is perceived by you (and others) as the road to success. I disagree with this. There's no evidence so far that people are quitting because farming random loot is too hard. There's no evidence that handing loot to newbies or making it easier them to get things makes them stay; if anything it distorts their expectations of the game by lowering the bar for one portion of their career while leaving the bar for endgame just as high; it's harmful to allow quicker and easier access to "hard" areas without forcing them to learn how to perform in those areas as something other than a "designated banker" or "nub who wins the split to everyone's dismay". Really, I don't see why my arguments or philosophy on this subject is coming as either a surprise or an aggravation to you. This has been around for a long time, and it's an attitude I held long before I ever started playing HG; in fact it's an established part of every RPG I've played. It's a pretty successful formula, and it's worked for ... over a decade now ? ... in terms of HG surviving and being enjoyed by a loyal, consistent playerbase. Yes, the playerbase is shrinking, and yes not all stay loyal; yes, changing times require tweaking expectations. But I still don't understand why you think changing the GAME itself to be easier is providing anything for new players but an illusion of their own success and an illusion of their own ability to be useful, productive members of parties composed by vets. We deceive new players into thinking they don't suck, for our own selfish ends: forming runs, assisting our own toons' progressions, saving the game we want to play. I find this abhorrent and I'd prefer to teach a new player how to survive, how to get their own loot, how to make farming and grinding more efficient and less painful, even enjoyable. How much time do you spend organizing your bankchests? How many bank mule organizer toons do you have, whose sole purpose is to help you go through all the gear you've amassed? Is it really so offensive that a new player spend time learning the runs and amassing their own gear? Is it so arrogant and unconsiderate of me to expect a new player to learn damage types, immunities, set gear drops, expected gear to survive a run? If you think that progressively dumbing-down the mod will help it survive, I think you're mistaken. As vulp recently remarked, "i can't even fill a dis, how are more subs going to get new players to stay when there are no new players?" New players to HG aren't going to last long, period, if they don't have the dedication and self-sufficiency to enjoy being in a game with this structure. I'm sure at this point tank will make another sarcastic comment about how I'm typing long rants with nothing to show for it except my own sense of pride; and you'll respond yet again that I'm being stuffy and old-fashioned. So be it. I guess this debate is pretty much over since we definitely fail to see eye-to-eye on this issue. Do whatever it takes to make yourself feel useful in prolonging the game. If you spent the same amount of time as you spend typing on the forums about how hard the game is, doing something productive like posting flyers on college campuses, joining other gaming forums and talking about HG, or trying to steal players from other NWN mods (I've had a bit of success so far ), then maybe I'd feel less insulted by your repeated attempts to guilt-trip me about how little I do to help the game. This is really the first time I've ever felt even an inkling of hostility toward you, but it is pretty insulting to have you not just once, but repeatedly, tell me that I'm a selfish git who squanders his ability to improve the game. I'm sorry I don't agree with you, but I don't see you doing anything productive either, except complaining about how noobs will leave because the game is too hard and attacking me for calling that as total bullcrap.
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Post by AuBricker on Jun 24, 2013 2:37:00 GMT
I am not saying make it too easy. I am saying that a new player's success should depend as much on his or her effort as it does luck.
I apologize if you feel I am trying to guilt-trip into some course of action. That was not my intent. My admiration for your ability is actual. I genuinely you able to make HG a more attractive place.
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Post by Torin on Jun 24, 2013 5:37:07 GMT
I am certain other players have better suggestions as to good drop locations. Let the Immortal drop 1-2. Vets usually let the Immo loot for the newer players. That would be a good moment to tell em to look for these kind of rings.
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Post by chirality on Jun 24, 2013 7:51:13 GMT
I am not saying make it too easy. I am saying that a new player's success should depend as much on his or her effort as it does luck. I apologize if you feel I am trying to guilt-trip into some course of action. That was not my intent. My admiration for your ability is actual. I genuinely you able to make HG a more attractive place. I think I read a bit deeper into your posts than I should have. Gut instinct of "no way brick could be trying to do anything remotely hostile" was something I should have stuck with. To be clear I want to emphasize that my issues with suggestions like these aren't merely due to "wah wah the mod was hard for me so it's BS if it's easier for future players". I'm not sure another multi-page thesis is the best way to explain it, so I'll try a new tact. I feel like it's a dangerous move to make things require less attentiveness and time investment. I feel like you can give a new player a fish, and he'll play for a day. If you teach her how to fish, she'll play for a year. I think emphasis needs to remain strong on the mod having a "learning curve" that may be more difficult than some comparable MMOs, because it necessitates teaching new players to fish. Yes, we give them fish while we're teaching them how to fish; and yes, some players may not really care too much about fishing anyway but enjoy hanging out with the fishermen, so it's ok to toss them some fish so they have some food in their stomach while they're out on the boat with the big boys. That's okay, but eventually it starts getting boring watching other people fish, and resentment builds. I think the only way to create a solid connection between the mod and a new player (other than human interaction and relationship-building, of course), is to ensure that they learn how to fish so that they have a sense of fulfillment and accomplishment and can land their own fish, even if it's with borrowed or donated rods and lines (ok I changed the analogy a bit there but I think the point remains). If a new player has been given fish and never really taught how to fish, then they hit a solid wall of frustration once they are being asked to reel in bigger and badder fish as their vet friends start wanting them to go out and help them land the big trophy catches. It's slow, it's tedious, and yes, not everyone has the attitude or desire to bother learning how to fish. But I think these players are never going to evolve past a very casual level of play and time investment. For those that do wish to contribute their own fish, there is only one way to learn, and that's the hard way. You can only get dragged and ride on borrowed gear for so long before the consequences start piling up quick. Now is that to say that adding something as simple as set drop imm rings equates to breaking the mod? Not at all. But again, I just don't understand why it's desirable, let alone necessary, or even helpful. It is SO. EASY. to get level-equivalent loot if you're progressing at a pace which follows the design of the mod. Yes, in today's climate of high-powered players and toons, it's kind of hard to NOT progress at a very fast rate; no one is going to say "nah sorry uber vet friends, i don't think i should go on that DB, bale said i need to wait another 2 months collecting random imm rings before I'm ready". But the uber vet friends maybe could be doing something other than DB with the new player that they want to stick around. No new player is going to turn down tia after the vets are shouting for it; newbie asks "what do i need for tia" and he realizes, ok i have the WS bird thing, this sounds fun", vets welcome him in. But after that tia where he probably got a big shock, and likely only survived due to extreme help and probably gear-borrowing/donating from the vets, should he then go to Dis the next day? No, he shouldn't. He should go back to desert, till he's familiar and confident. He should go back to DB, back to thids. Not Ely just because the vets are begging someone to come and robotically follow commands so they don't wipe. Well that was a pretty huge post again (thought I said I was not going to make another one...oops). I just hope it's a bit clearer now where I'm coming from. Ok, the BUR sub thing, I didn't know what I was talking about; sure, do whatever it takes to keep the vets happy (let's be honest, that is ALL that it's going to do--for the last time it will NOT bring in new players and any player that stays solely for that reason is not a new player, because by the time they were to get that pissed off about it to quit, they've been around for a while anyway: e.g. tank). But for this, I just don't get it. It really makes no sense. What about mords ring in desert? That's BEFORE db, and the SET ring is AFTER the run is over. That means a newbie is either not tanking or using a borrowed/donated ring; or theoretically vet party with the newbie is allowing him to tank and get pwned without one (I don't see it but I won't put it out of the realm of possibility). So, should we make a set drops mord ring before desert? After all, not having one would mean *gasp* they have to farm a random ur one or be given a ring from a vet--hmm, sounds a lot like DB + imm rings doesn't it? What about Sissy? Man, it's tough to survive there with bad gear and only lowbie WB ring. Should we add a loca ring as a set drop in Drowned City to help their imms a bit? Or are they expected to just tough it out losing a whole ring slot worth of imm? Or maybe they have to *gasp* farm a random GWB ring or be given one from a vet to maybe help out? What about tia? yikes, those flames are pretty rough if you're both a noob and have subpar gear. Should we put a mag imm ring by the HS so after thids they have a nice ring to help survive tia? Or maybe consumable with personal immute in case party has no druid and there's no way they can survive once consorts spawn? I'm not trying to be overly sarcastic here, but I'm just saying...
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