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Post by desocupado on Mar 9, 2013 2:30:23 GMT
I've added a few ideas on my first post* Now another one:
Shadowdancer
SD Dwarf Str+4 Dex+4 Con+2 Int+4 Dodge, Mobility, ESF Discipline, Armor Skin, True Fear Immunity, Passwall, +10 Hide +8 MSilent +5 Tumble.
The main advantage seems to be the ability to go SD at level 2 (which isn't great unless you want to splash WM - something you could do using a WM subrace instead). True fear immunity doesn't mesh so well with this class (Paladin splash is one of the best for SD) - Ideally SD splash either Paladin, Monk, Weapon Master, Fighter or Blackguard. Even tough the base race is Dwarf, Dual wielding Dwarven axes isn't viable due low AB. (Tough LSA Discipline is pretty good)
Suggestion brainstorm: (I'd pick 1 and 6) 1 - Paladin already provide True fear so... Give them true poison immunity (it's suitable for a Dwarf subrace) 2 - Well if there's a "use poison update" coming, then the true fear might be usable with a BG splash (Tough Monk+Paladin is the combo that makes most sense) 3 - Base race Human might be better suited (No xp penalty and +1 skill per level instead of Con+2) 4 - Could have some dual wielding feats instead of Armor Ski and passwall 5 - Could have 5 casting per day of Improved Heroism (or any other suitable buff to give them LBAB 15) - or some other sort ofAB bonus to allow them to dual wield dwarf axes 6 - Could have a different (better and unique) ability spread Str+6 Dex+6 Con+2 (SD have enough skill points already) 7 - Give them use poison feat 8 - Improve SD skills if using this subrace
Main competitor: Halfling Uni > This subrace
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Post by condude on Mar 9, 2013 3:04:07 GMT
The DD subby seems way OP for low levels (think a lvl. 1 running around with 1012 hp ) Maybe give them +500hp @ 40, 1000 @ 60 and 1500 @ 80?
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Post by desocupado on Mar 9, 2013 13:24:17 GMT
The DD subby seems way OP for low levels (think a lvl. 1 running around with 1012 hp ) Maybe give them +500hp @ 40, 1000 @ 60 and 1500 @ 80? Indeed - just make it: 1 - +1000 hp at LL levels (level 41) 2 - +25 HP per level during levels 41-80 3 - +50 HP per level during levels 41-60 BG Have a similar problem to SD, no clear advantage in the subrace compared to other (Divine tanks even have the same spread) Unlike SD, you can't become BG without BAB+6 - so giving the pre-req isn't as beneficial. - Also lacks Wisdom bonuses to help spell casting (less severe than WC problem tough)
- Seems to be less interesting than the Divine Tanks (which are aimed for smiters)
- BG's true advantage is the ability (requirement) to splash 2 classes (Fighter WM Monk Paladin and Harper being the main ones - Bard, xDD and DD can also be used). This splashing is only limited by smiting AB and CL loss, so the subrace could grant +5 smite AB, +5 BG CL and +2 Wisdom (instead of +2 Constitution and Great Charisma Charisma II) /li]
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Post by hfb on Mar 9, 2013 15:17:37 GMT
I offer these remarks only in an attempt to be helpful. I am fully aware that beggars can't be choosers and, truth be told, I have no interest in being a chooser. Wiz vs. Sorc: meh. I wish I had something to offer for this known "issue." Both are really good as they are. I accept that sorc probably gets the better deal and sorc is already "better" as a class. Perhaps just swap the feat lists? I am done thinking about this gordian knot as I am sword-less. Cleric: add "hospitalier" option for the CN, NN, and LN alignments which doubles wisdom mod to heal skill that applies to both healing (allies and undead) and harming PM: I'd like to see FoD empowered rather than maxed. The adds to get to BG are nice and a 2 splash is doable, but the punch of the special should be a bit bigger than maxed FoD, imho. GI: Electric vuln. really hurts. The two sixes are nice, but I am skeptical that they are that nice, especially when on a gnome. That it is electric strikes me as counter intuitive, cold seems the least "inventor-y" element or possibly sonic. In any case, -50 to any element, except on an RDD is basically a race-breaker in my estimation. BC: removal of the (only?) Achilles heel may be OP, but I've not played a BC, so this may just be pap on my part. Staffy: removal of the (only?) Achilles heel may be OP, but I've not played a BC, so this may just be pap on my part. This one is of more concern than BC since Staffies are just all that and a bag of chips already. Monk: if going with one race for "all" monks, it makes sense to me to go with WS/EWS for goad, nun, kama in addition to UA. The fisters could be given some stunning fist feats so that they stay special in light of giving up their gloves gear slot. Rogue: love, love, love the internal dmg! Blooded (LSA-disc enabler) would fix a lot of rogue build problems. The ESFs seem like overkill and Sneak Attack feats or other rogue specific feats (opp, cs, slippery mind) might yield more cohesiveness for rogues. SD: I like the true fear: SD ought not be afraid of the things that go bump in the night or (also) lurk in the shadows. On the other hand, I would trade the fear in a heartbeat for a useful skill set for SD, which (arguably?) has the WORST set of skills of all. StrAssn: Str 26 base + 20 bumps + 16 item + 4 DD + 2 arti + 10 GS = 78 = 34 mod * 2.5 = 85% which is a big number. I am not sure that it is so big as to be OP, but it is nice. Dexer1: -5 str is a race-breaker imho for a melee toon. If offered a half-fiend book or this one, I think I'd take 1/2F even if it were limited to elf. The two specials are huge, I get that and the parry more than the ED which is saying something. The net spread is only 11, which is 3 off par for non-8 races. 3 base + 8 points = str 10 + 4 DD + 4 paragon feat + 2 univ. contumancy + 16 item = 32 which is not a good number for str checks for a melee toon even rapped out like this. Uni1: +2 int would balance out the stats a bit since the base spread is +8, which is 6 less than par and the +9 is really a +7 w/ 1/2ling. The true KD imm is beautiful and so is the new and improved ride skill. ^_^ Having said all that, many many of these are just delightful to behold in their perfection, balance, effectiveness, and thematics: barb, rdd, sl, the divines, bg. Totally great stuff and thank you very much for new toys!!!!
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Post by pete on Mar 9, 2013 15:29:29 GMT
low levels creates problems for many of these, there are some abilities that are extreamy powerful at low level and others that are worthless here are a few examples: (im not saying they should be changed i just want to draw attention to them)
Wiz XR lvl 7 spell imm - has been argued this isnt very good endgame but for lowbies it makes you immune to lvl 14 and lower casters (as they cannot overcome it) druid XR - half hell pens wont do anything unless you are in hell or abyss. so up to lvl 55 it does nothing sorc XR - breach imm, how many monsteres use breach lvl 1-55? i know its so few i never needed to use the immunity divine large XR - 25+level SR, this makes you very resistant to most casters if you are level apropreate for the area
i dont think these should be changed, while some are very powerful there are BUR subs that make low level much easyer, i always felt being so powerful at low level was the reward for earning that subrace
+1000 HP does seem an immense boost for a lvl 1, but then so is +8 to a stat, it gives dexers massive AC (try a brownie right now) and any caster with a death attack can kill easily
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Post by chirality on Mar 9, 2013 18:27:47 GMT
I don't understand that line of argument at all pete But obviously it's not worth continuing more back-and-forth here, although I lack the self-control to not at least respond and argue ONE last time After all anyone by XRs who is still bother to play wiz over sorc is gonna get what they're asking for in terms of a subpar class and a subpar toon, like HFB said I guess there is even a logic there For the record the one useful spell imm granted from level 7 that I can think of is WoF which is a complete joke either way--only even noticeable if you lack UEF (exceedingly easy to obtain in party or even solo with Memnoch ring), and even without blind imm it's just an annoyance nothing more, again for emphasis I can think of ONE spell that is a COMPLETE nonissue And for the record there is plenty of breach before 55 (I assume by 55 you means hells, I don't know, I do lots of runs before 55, there is breach in many LL runs that don't require WS tag to access and there is also plenty of breach even before immo such as drow and AKs. If you're trying to argue that useless level 7 imm on an XR wiz sub is "worthy" because it's "good" in lowbie area, it's negligent to ignore the benefit of these areas... breach imm is awesome and exceedingly useful for a caster, there is no 2 ways about it, and no it's not useless until lategame, far from it...and even more to the point, lol making immune to level 14 casters...are you serious... what) I swear not trying to come down hard on you, I really respect the attempt to justify this glaring imbalance but it's just not working How bout level 7 imm for sorc and breach imm for wiz Let's see how many people like that HFB: I also agreed at first glance with the seeming incongruity of GI having elic vuln But, my guess is that the explanation is based on electricity negatively affecting "robotic" systems etc etc etc, much like ingame many aquatic or "fish" mobs get zapped easy by elec, common trope in books, movies, games etc is for mechanical/electrical subsystems to vulnerable to electric attacks It makes sense and, from metagame standpoint, I think elec is a lot more desirable as a vuln than cold Regardless though I agree that any ele imm seems a bit too hard of a hit for the sub, and that is a good point I had not noticed, good job pointing it out
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Post by condude on Mar 9, 2013 19:02:43 GMT
I also agreed at first glance with the seeming incongruity of GI having elic vuln But, my guess is that the explanation is based on electricity negatively affecting "robotic" systems etc etc etc, much like ingame many aquatic or "fish" mobs get zapped easy by elec, common trope in books, movies, games etc is for mechanical/electrical subsystems to vulnerable to electric attacks It makes sense and, from metagame standpoint, I think elec is a lot more desirable as a vuln than cold Regardless though I agree that any ele imm seems a bit too hard of a hit for the sub, and that is a good point I had not noticed, good job pointing it out Doesn't -50% mean 50% immunity? At least it does on every other subby
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Post by pete on Mar 9, 2013 19:17:54 GMT
*sigh* i was not trying to continue the argument about lvl 7 spell imm being rubbish at endgame, i agreed with that a few pages back and suggested better things to give the wizard, remember the comment about a free specilization? but the breach imm vs lvl 7 imm doesnt seem fair, from EV a wizard will have lvl 6 imm anyway and can take a lvl 7 spell to get immunity to lvl 7s how about giving the wizard XR immunity to direct mord? this seems balanced to me in abyss ely and abo (though hell you can get away without mord on rak free layers) i also really like the idea of a free spec school, this would help those wizard that dont want to block any schools get access to the paragon bonus CLs this post was about low levels and how the XRs will affect them. lvl 7 spell imm is good for toons before they can cast the spell themselves, it does give you immunity to lvl 14 and lower casters because they CANNOT cast lvl 8 or 9 spells, so they will be casting away while you are immune to all their spells ill take your word on breach being in alot of 1-40 areas, im rarely there. so this flips that ability to very powerful in 1-40 areas as there are so few items with breach imm that low
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Post by desocupado on Mar 9, 2013 21:29:11 GMT
Does this means they ignore 50% of enemies Elec immunity? (otherwise it should read 50% elec vulnerability) Also they seem unable to take advantage of this. If it only affects GI attacks, maybe they could ignore physical immunity (btw they really need Great Dexterity feats instead of immunities)
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Post by chirality on Mar 9, 2013 22:05:43 GMT
*sigh* i was not trying to continue the argument about lvl 7 spell imm being rubbish at endgame, i agreed with that a few pages back and suggested better things to give the wizard, remember the comment about a free specilization? I didn't say it's in a lot of 1-40 areas, I said it's in 2 1-40 areas(drow and AKs), you seemed to indicate breach was not useful until 55: sorc XR - breach imm, how many monsteres use breach lvl 1-55? i know its so few i never needed to use the immunity I said that it is found not only in those two 1-40 runs but also on other LL runs that are doable/commonly ran before 55, this was not a rant it was in direct response to your above quote Ok I realize you stated earlier in the thread that wiz sub could be improved, but at the same time you seem to minimize the value of the sorc breach imm, which provides an argument for saying that it's not much stronger than level 7 imm, especially after you also said that the level 7 imm is useful or too powerful in low levels (again, highly disagree, even lowly open sub SR is more effective at providing protecetion against lowbie casters) Sorry don't want to keep arguing just wanted to clarify why I said what I said I don't think giving free school spec is a good idea because that would only hamper efforts to improve the class itself, and frankly sounds too powerful for a subrace ability anyway I'd rather see something like levi, as it stands the wiz XR doesn't hold much vs. genie except extra +1 DC which is surely nice but I'd really be tempted to still use genie anyway since levi is so great; levi or WB is more in line with breach imm as far as making up for lost gear slot which is much tighter on wiz anyway Also I'm not sure why XR sorc and wiz bonus feats are basically reversed from Rad Gen/Genie, why would XR sub suddenly shift this precedent by giving wiz Rad Gen bonus feats and giving sorc Genie bonus feats, this makes little sense to me other than as a further boost for sorcs (ok I'm ranting but, that's the only conclusion I can really draw since most people already seem to think Genie SP feats > Rad Gen metamagic feats) And yes laser addressed this back on page 1: Sorc XR frees up 3 feats (Spell Pen/GSP/ESP) . . . ; Wiz XR only frees up 2 feats (Extend+Empower - sorc can be perfectly functional without maximize spell, same with wiz) Yet I wanted to make sure it was not lost in the dust Deso: good point on the GI elec imm, interested also to hear explanation
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Post by pete on Mar 9, 2013 23:49:59 GMT
legendary and paragon weapon spec feats list EWS (and LWS) as the only requirement
so does that mean that the subs that give WS/EWS would allow these builds to take LWS and PWS without any fighter or CoT levels?
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Post by KnightErrant on Mar 10, 2013 0:06:26 GMT
Yes.
Currently Zeny and Anarch have this iirc.
KE.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 10, 2013 6:20:25 GMT
I built a new google doc which should be a little clearer to work with, and incorporated all the suggestions in this thread. I'm starting a new thread for round 2 - thanks to all who've commented thus far!
Funky
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