Best to just suggest what you think is cool to give the devs something to go on - go ahead and give it a try it's kinda fun to do.
Exactly. If you don't like a suggested name, SUGGEST AN ALTERNATE ONE. It's both very easy and of very little value to say 'that's no good' unless you suggest an alternative (one of the 'rules' of critical theory - suggest a better alternative to the thing you're critiquing).
You know, for the Gnomish Inventor subrace, I like the idea Shard seemed to be aiming for with it: Clockwork Gnome. For specials? Hmm...How about Very Fast movement (it's a masterwork clockwork robot, after all), waterbreathing (do robots need to breathe?), and maybe immunity to Confusion (robots are logical). :-)
If you want to give it some vulnerability to electricity, how about 5-10% vuln or -1-2 saves vs elec?
The Druid XR is kinda meh comparing it to it´s bur counterpart. Yes you get 2 more dc out of it going with the usual builds, but the loss of 4 con hurts alot. Druids, caster or not, are often in the frontline. Higher health, fort save and concentration are very important for them and the XR is weaker in that than the rilmani. I´d rather like to see it get 2 con and epic reflex feat instead of 2 dex to make a real difference and give it a bit more sturdiness.
For the issue with the cleric xr overlap I sadly have no suggestion yet. They both are devine casters and the spellschools they use are more or less the same.
Forcing druid into conj focus? No thanks. Evo or trans...99% better than every other school for druid. Forcing anything but those two just makes cleric even more desirable than it already is. I think trans for druid and evo for cleric feat-wise is the best option. Feats,abilities, and skills for cleric and druid are far too similar to bother trying to severely differentiate, so use the specials to help differentiate or go the BUR route of forcing xp penalty(annoying but works).
On second thought the one feat that noticeably separates my cleric from my druid is empower spell. In my opinion druid gets more mileage out of this feat because it has good damage spells to empower compared to cleric (though this would only serve to make druid subby less useful to cleric and cleric subby same usefulness to druid).
Couldn't get that idiomatic "pidgeon hole" or it's meaning in this context. Anyway... Let's just assume people can use both subraces for both classes.
Could the cleric get SF Enchant (addtional bonus feat) + Area rebuke if neutral? --Neutral cleric is weaker than good (paladin) or evil (heart bane). --Rebuke is level 8 spell for them (can't empower)
The druid could use some toughening, Armor Skin and Toughness (or con+2). Even tough the special is good, we must remember that druid's also lack parry as a class skill drud have much worse resistances than Cleric's Gate+GR. Another route would a skill focus like ESF/LSF: Persuade or Animal empathy. Another buff is making their stoneskin spell cast greater stoneskin on the target instead.
Last Edit: Mar 15, 2013 15:02:21 GMT by desocupado
AoE Rebuke seems problematic due to mag heal mobs. And even assuming ploder could be reasonably spending time in combat spamming mag dmg on boss, surely this can't possibly compare to HB. Or maybe aoe instakill but i can't picture many spawns even in abyss (not that I'm too familiar with every map of every run, far from it, and yes there are randoms) in which aoe rebuke would have more than a few targets, well I'm no pro but I can only think of a handful period, 5ish maybe
edit: I do see the benefit for AoE instakill, surely would be useful in both hells and abyss, the only problem is the mag damage, then again maybe I'm overestimating that as well...it just seems like most AoE insta have an option for no constant damage for use of instakilling multiple mobs at once, to use CoD vs. FoD as an example, CoD can be safely used to instakill multiple death targets without healing anything or producing kb, whereas AoE FoD is mainly used for the dmg spam, the +1 DC helps for sure but PM DC on CoD isn't exactly poor in the first place
Just trying to clarify, I don't mean to shoot the idea down Deso, it is both cool and unique, it just seems difficult to use as carrot for neutral ploder due to losing HB at marginal gain, maybe something like boosting rebuke DC would be more desirable and less problematic? Well I would support that, maybe just as evil and good aligned XR gets +DC, neutral could get +DC to rebuke and something else? I still think neutral needs more carrot other than some possible already-extant loots, but this could be a good start toward laying a foundation for neutral ploder, could be improved in future updates with maybe a unique insta spell for neutral ploders, or some other kind of new spell, or improving some existing spells if cleric's good-evil axis is neutral?
Or, what about in addition to boosting rebuke DC, also improve Abj spells? To attempt to carve a niche for an effective neutral ploder that is more effective with Abj and Ench, in exchange for losing HB and option for pal saves?
also rebuke can't be empowered, true, but it doesn't need to be, empower barely adds any damage at all, it can still be extended for another slot, 8s and 9s are still cleric most needed slots even after geat nerf, meaning most cleric has lots of 8s and 9s, meaning situations where rebuke spam is needed, cleric can stil have 2 full spell level for flex
rebuke being level 8 I think is intended as a balancer for several reasons, so that it competes directly with other 8s (and 9s extended), not sure if there is more reasoning too?
and regardless of rebuke use, neutral cleric would preclude use of HB, for abyss I can't see dropping HB for rebuke, that sounds painful when evil can use both if builder so desires, maybe some more overall changes could be implemented to create an impressive neutral ploder option
Anyway I like the idea of improving neutral cleric as atm there is no real point to doing so but I think the answer lies in new spells, editing spells, new gear, editing gear, not an XR sub special
This just seems too ambitious a task to tackle with XR sub, rather than other future updates which could better serve to explore this option
Anyway for cleric, why does it only get one SF feat + the ESF Heal? I won't bother asking or arguing with the specialized alignment thingies (edit ok well I end up doing so anyway ) but would not 2 ranks of SF be appropriate? Why would that be too imbalanced? ESF Heal is nice but it's hardly comparable to a "necessity" feat like BUR version gets.
I am basically seeing +2 Wis and worse feats than HC. Added special is cool but ... ? Why is this overall so weak? What is the fear here? Again look at Druid XR, this is superior just due to 2 ranks foci bonus
Or am I missing something? What is the rationale to ploder XR getting -1 "necessary" feat vs. HC and keeping the ESF Heal? I would assume the +2 DC stat is a given for higher-tier rarity, the plode/HB DC is nice but does ploder really need more DC anyway? Wouldn't easing build difficulty help more with freeing up extra feat slot?
Also Enervate is not evil only, i loved using it on pal splash build. it should be fixed that Evil domain can be taken with good aligned toon (yes this belongs in another thread and forum but I would rarely think of it offhand, just posting here as a placeholder I guess)
adding DC for both enervate and HB seems a bit stronger than opposing good version getting plode DC, DC helps HB/enerv more than plode, evil cleric accessing plode+HB already is such strong offensive tool that evil ploder is very strong anyway, to me it looks like as of now evil XR ploder gets more than good due to +1 DC on the 2 "trademark" evil cleric spells which are either low DC or dual save and thus more problematic to land than plode
edited also some other parts of the post, deleted some things, added some words, tried to make it less of an attack on deso and more of supporting his objective for neutral ploder
Couldn't get that idiomatic "pidgeon hole" or it's meaning in this context.
Definition Basically, he's saying he doesn't want to limit the subrace by forcing a set of foci onto it. That was one of the principles we adopted when making XR subs.
I see. In that case, one of the Wisdom subraces could have Great Wisdom 4 and the other several SF (like all 8) or even more GSF. On the other hand, the divine caster classes themselves are forced into a few schools: --Druids - Transmutation (must have) Evocation and Conjuration (highly recommended) Necromancy and Illusion (optional) Abjuration Enchantment Divination (should avoid) -----Also have 2 less epic bonus feats than clerics
Neutral Cleric The point of neutral cleric would be having something different (neither paladin splash or Necromancy). Rebuke with +1/+2 DC and/or auto empowered could work as well. Another thing would be boosting abjuration (area/extended energy immunity spell)
Additional list of good spells to boost with subrace Prayer (increase CL or stacking penalty) Battletide (increased CL) Restoration (+1 /+2 rounds if extended) Destruction (it's a great spell already - maybe using as if it was from another school) Blade Barrier (it's a great spell, but it's school isn't that great for clerics) Dismissal/Banishment (another option for neutral cleric - DC)
By the way can a subrace make another spell spontaneous? Could it make a spell spontaneous for a Wizard as well?
Last Edit: Mar 15, 2013 16:45:15 GMT by desocupado