But what is the point of Half-Elf then? Does this provide any advantage or is it just to be "different" and negate 1 feat in exchange for one bonus feat?
(Clearly with a different sub for each build type, XR druid is not aimed at providing Half-Elf LSA Listen for druid tank? So what does this do?)
Edit: not trying to question the HE choice or spawn a new argument, I like the fact that both subs aren't human, I'm just trying to understand what more I missed
edit: or was I too quick to assume that HE isn't meant for LSA Listen? Is this sub also intended to be used for Stormlord as well? (just curious because every other different build type seems to have its own XR sub, so Stormlord could have its own custom-crafted sub as well? After all BC isn't exactly a true quasiclass either, my feeling is that it's more popular than Stormlord due to the fact that it's better addressed with loot/subs + more or less better spell changes, but new XR sub could help change the dynamic of Stormlord being relatively underused, with a good sub option tooled for Stormlord it might increase in popularity?)
It seems decent, but should probably get FC: Druid/Monk as I mentioned earlier, and I'm on the fence as to whether I would prefer it as a half-elf instead of an elf (h-elf gets qlsa listen, and elf gets +2 dex -2 con). Half-elf would probably come out slightly ahead, tho. I'd also prefer Evocation foci to Trans foci, but that's just me.
First of, was very pleased to see progress on these.
Thing that got my attention the most while reading the spreadsheat was DD notes: "I want to make pure defense here, can we add hp like that? 1000 might be a lot but I think the TANK role ismissing in hg - gave it crappy str./dex to avoid other tanks takign it. Was going to add many epic toughness feats but then RDD would take."
No amount of HP or immunity (DD's already go far over 100%) will make you tank on HG. Tanking on HG requires 2 things: a) avoid all possible disables (there are still couple that I know of which will always get you no matter what) b) avoid all possible instakills. A tank that doesnt get disabled with 500 hp will stay alive much longer than tank with 3 500 hp that gets constantly stunned/KD'd/confused etc.
Few suggestions, no idea how feasible they are for a TANK would be: -6 all stats, immune: everything (but damage) reroll all 1's, time after time, so if you're 60 save vs dc 60 you cant fail rebirth on death once/day that puts you in gs and buffs you with neg energy prot, epic mage armor, CL 55 mass camo (this activates once you become LL)
Another quality of life improvement for all tanks, expertise (and improved) wont cancel while drinking potions or using rods - still wont let casters to cheese it, but would actually make it useable. Although, personaly wouldnt see many occasions still to use it, beacuse moving cancels it and right positioning is like highest priority at tanking.
As summary to DD: remove all positive stats, add penalties and give it something that actually saves from things that kills on HG (that isnt damage fyi).
Read both threads and although it is all in jumble on my head, can't really prevaricate anymore.
OOOkay, first the generic observations.
First, as laser has said, I hate being obliged to choose a gender to make a build. Some people like to do female characters, like Bad. Others like male characters, like me. It seems to me to tie the a certain class/quasi/style to a gender is not interesting.
Second, I agree completely that giving spell focus feats to a subrace restricts the player on spell choice. For some classes/quasis this is no biggie. Perfect example, if a bit extreme, is transmutation for Pariah. However for other classes most schools are useful depending on play style. Extreme example is Caster Wizzie, where every school but Divination is useful in a way or another. I think giving spell penetration foci or great ability feats is better at this point. It will make the subracers look a bit alike, I know, but the subraces are not the end. Taking the necessisty of taking those feats will allow players to make different builds.
Third, I think the "favored of" as name for a subrace is going overboard. I'll try to suggest substitution. I think a few is fine, but it is starting to look like a greek play, where everybody is favored of some deity or another.
On to specifics.
Bard - Favored of BRD - Name: Songborn - Please give an alternative base race. Being tied to gnome is... bad. Even going Half-Elf or something is better.
Warchanter - Name: Battleborn
Wizard - Favored of Mystra - Please don't go with those feats. Most wizards don't get all 3 exactly because they are not as useful as they are for sorcerers. Keep the spell penetration feats or as a compromise, give extend and empower and 1 great int, plus the greater ruin.
Caster Druid - Favored of Silvanus - Name: Primeval. Or maybe Primeval Rilmani
Caster Cleric - Favored of Ploder - Name: Solarblooded - Feats: ESF Heal's only function is to save 10 skills points on that character. Main ability will already be 30 something,, so ranks will be 40 something. I suggest extend meta, which is very useful for clerics of all persuasions.
Daemonkin - Don't tie the different builds to male/female. Although with PM's that's minor. Anyway, Call one Daemonkin and the other Devilkin
Armored PM's (Favored of Loviatar) - Name: Deathblooded for Sorcerer, Deathmined for PM
Theurge (Favored of Lolth)
There is not need to go +8/+6. No way in hell of getting a decent DC out of both classes, so giving penalties to get bonus to the non-favored scores is kind of pointless. I suggest going +8/+4 and taking off the -2. On the same aspect giving both great int I and II and great wis I and II will give just 2 useful feats. If you want to give the same feats to both, I suggest spell penetration or necromancy, which are good for both classes.
Can the male/female thing too. Doesn't make sense even on the SM. Drow females are clerics, period. Drow males are wizards, period. I don't even think drow males can be clerics (of Lolth).
In fact I suggest this for Theurges.
Arcane Theurge - Name Weavemaster - +8 Int/+4Wis - Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Great Intelligence I and II
Divine Theurge - Name: Wonderweaver - +8 Wis/ +4 Int - Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Great Wisdom I and II
Turner: (Favored of Ao) - Name: High Exorcist - Trouble with this is that turner pallys get canned on feats. Either make a pally turner subby (Exalted Exorcist?) with, say, epic prowess and armor skin instead of the abjur focus. Or Rapier Wit, WF: Rapier and Epic Prowess to keep the same number of feats and normal/epic proportion.
Herald of Storms
Sorc CC - Name: Stormblooded
Druid CC - Name: Stormborn
Gnomish Inventor - Name: Sparkminded
Str BFM/DSM - Name: Trueblooded or Dragonkin. Change base race from gnome to human. The -2 to str from base race actually hurts this kind of build.
Battlecleric (Favored of Helm) - Name: High Crusader - At present gives same number of feats than pharlan (Div Might would ordinarely require cleave so it saves two feats) and gives no special ability. If want to give a little give Levitation.
Life Threader - don't know enough about the class and damnfino a good name for the subbie.
Black Knight - Name: Scion of Hatred
Str Lash (Fey'ri) - Leave name as is
Dex Lash - Name: Favoered of Loviathar - Actually this is one of the few times I think favored of is appropriate.
Str/Div Large - Name: Titanblood
Str/Div - Name: Magnarchon - Drop Divine Shield from the feats, put power attack instead. Not everybody likes it, and power attack is pretty much required even with both divine feats.
Str/Dex - Name: Supreme Deva - Does great smite make sense on a dex build? (never made one). If not, maybe trade them for Epic Prowess and Armor Skin.
Blackguard - Name: Scion of Darkness
Monk - Name: Noble Zenythri
Rogue - Name: Godstealer - give it one extra race, for those that don't like halfling or want to go medium sized. Elf would bb best, I think.
Str Assassin (Favored of Cyric) - Name: Heartrender
Dex Assassin (Favored of Shar) - Name: Heartpiercer - I don't think OC and DC work with assassin dagger. Anyway, trade it for WF and GWF Assassin Dagger.
Dwarven Defender (Favored of DD) - Name: Rockhearted
XDD (Favored of RDD) - Name: Corewalker
Zen Ranger (Favored of Lathlander) - Name: Hunterborn - Give either epic prowess or EWF: Shortbow to this race, to equal the number of feats given by the AA XR.
Arcane Archer - (Favored of AA) -Name: Farworker, Scion of Apollo
Divine Slinger (Favored of Tymora) - Name: Fatebreaker
Dexer 1 (Favored of Dex1) - Name: Battledancer - On the comments, seems underpowered, and reducing a subbie's benefites because of a benefit a Class gets seems wrong, specially as class is seen as underpowered anyway. But the actual stats are fine, I guess the comments are outdated. Only 3 feats, but feats are not really necessary for fighter. Maybe give some special abilities, like immune to petrification, levitation, luck of heroes, Blooded, Or ability to take LSA: Listen
Dexer 2 (Favored of Dex2) - Name: Lightbender
Strengther 1 (Favored of str1) - Name: Crustbreaker
Strengther 2 (Favored of str2) - Name: Earthshaker
Rapier Wit (Favored of Rapier Wit) - Name: Razorwitted - Penalty on Con is scary. got just +2 to Str/Dex and elimitate the penalty.
Intuitive Attack (Favored of Intuitive Attack) - Timewarper
I agree with of course the obvious (male/female differentiation, feat issues), as well as the less obvious smaller points which I didn't really notice much till reading your post.
I also agree that the sheer massive amount of "Favored" is overboard (lol nice greek play, that made me chuckle, for the D&D inclined it also resembles some lame novels )
I think a few is definitely cool though. Ideally I'd pick ones that either seem too good to miss (favored of Loviatar is nice, after all Excruciarch doesn't exactly work), or for some that are otherwise just too hard to find a good match in FR/planar D&D lore (will give some examples of this later if I can stop grinding DB long enough to post something useful myself)
I know I shouldn't be (once again) hating on other people's suggestions without offering better ones of my own, but to be 100% honest with you I find the theme of your suggestions even more stale and boring than having everything be a Favored. In your favor, it is at least consistent, but it kind of reads like um....a list of your toons edit: I really mean as little offense as possible with that, it's just funny to me that's all, I know I can't say "I mean no offense.....but here let me offend you", but just trying to be honest, sorry I don't mean to hurt your feelings
I really like the concept of some favored (as you indicate, should only be used where highly appropriate), and the rest drawn from D&D lore, in particular FR as much as possible.
This theme is already pretty well-established, to the point that many old subs just don't fit or look very awkward--Baseborn Titan has been pointed out in the past...what is this? Why is it there?
Anyway, to me a great part of the game is such awesome detail and accuracy provided for lore, in everything from areas, loot, and for this discussion, subrace names, it just works really great and to me makes it seem very much more coherent and believable, less forced, much better immersion
I know this is twice now I've critiqued others' name suggestions without any input of my own, my apologies, I will do my best to put some time into creating a list
Ok here's my 1st take (surely be some editing) on names
I liked quite some suggestions already given, I will list these first:
Bacchae Deep Imaskari (grew on me) Lythari Etherguant Urdunnir Zelekhut Kaorti Eladree
As someone (pete?) mentioned in other thread, I would prefer to see "Chosen" rather than "Favored", like kaezar said I would like to see a couple of these (although Funky did say he'd like to remove them altogether, I like a few)
Chosen of Loviatar Chosen of Velsharoon (ok, I know this one sounds a stretch but I can't find anything satisfactory for PM otherwise, and Elf PM is perfect for this...I really dislike the idea of naming PM subs after "demonkin" or anything like that, the class has absolutely nothing to do with infernal or demonic heritage and really doesn't make much sense to me in any way other than being evil)
Here's some other FR/planar monsters that I think would be appropriate for one sun or another:
Asura (BoED celestial-ish thingy, I like this for turner) Canomorphs come in 3 varieties: -Haraknin (LE) -Shadurakul (NE) -Vultivor (CE) they do not have to look like dogs, these monsters are pretty cool and cool names too, they are not truly demons, devils, or yugoloths but are similar as evil outsiders across the Lower Planes Chronotyryn (similar to Kenku but has 2 heads, really cool mob, LE from Acheron) Demodand comes in 3 varieties (these are NE mobs from Carceri) -Farastu -Kelubar -Shator Here is 2 demons I don't recognize as being ingame mobs (both tanar'ri, would recommend Half- for sub name) -Klurichir -Kastighur Here is 2 devil I don't recognize as being ingame mob (baatezu, prolly Half- ) -Ghargatula -Xerfilstyx (this one could be, not Half-, depending on appy possibilities) Here are some Eladrin (in true D&D Eladrin is not one mob but rather a type of celestial much like "demon" or devil", they are CG from Arborea--edit: yes I know about Ely mobs, just tring to explain a bit deepr for those who aren't familiar with Ely, or the mobs) -Bralani -Coure -Shiradi -Toulani Galeb Duhr...could be used for Pariah, having trouble coming up with a good pariah one, this has potential so far Glaistig...this is a fey, would be perfect for a bard, looks human or half-elven Grisgol...this would be perfect for PM imo, even though name isn't too cool -http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040905a&page=4
Marrash....kind of like an gnoll with wings, this is from FR
Phaerimm...a trademark of FR lore, if Deep Imaskari is included, would love to see the Phaerimm as well, I would do Phaerimm as sorc due to, well they are sorcs
Mechantrix...this is a LN planetouched, construct themed, could work for GI
Rejkar...this is a LE inhabitant of Baator, but not a baatezu, it hates them...would do Half-Rejkar as they look like demonic arctic goat things (real cool though, and intelligent, not dumb animals), and can't shift shape naturally
Shadar-Kai...this is a fey from Shadow Plane, would work great for SD I think
Well that's it for now, later will try to improve formatting/coding and add in some more detail for monsters, as well as what I think sub they're appropriate for
Also have more suggestions to come of course...
Edit: a while ago jonuhey suggested
--Dogai as a new assassin sub, I think Dogai would work great for XR assassin sub...cool name, very cool mob
--Zodar this is a really cool mob, not sure what precisely it would be used best for, but cool name and also awesome mob in and of itself, obviously a tank not a caster
--Yochlol this is a demon, it is unique to FR, "handmaidens of lolth", tanar'ri, not sure what it would work for best but would be great to see for something that uses elf as base, due to being drow, and unique to FR
--Sharn this is another trademark of FR lore/history, having been essential in the history of the Netherese empire due to their war with the Phaerimm, they are "good" primeval race, very cool, powerful enough to make sense for XR subs "The sharn are adept and monstrous sorcerers who worship the alliance of deities known as the Pentad—the elven deities Corellon Larethian and Sehanine Moonbow, the dwarven god Dumathoin, and the human deities Mystra and Oghma. The sharn are composed of a variety of different races, including elves, dwarves, humans, and centaurs, of fallen civilizations that willingly underwent magical transformations to turn themselves into sharn that they may better preserve their civilizations’ lore. The sharn also prevent abuses of magic and fight against corruptions of the Weave." quoted from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharn_(Forgotten_Realms)
would work great for a XR shapechanger, really cool creature
Also, speaking of LoM mobs, which seem to fit in well with EEs theme (naturally)
What about something with ties/origin to the Far Realm, such as
RE: monk. As things stand, fist monks get 3/2. This seems good to me and with the extra goodies, maybe even a bit of a bump up which is not a bad thing in my eyes. However, weapon monks get 2/1, viz. WF, GWF, & EP. This seems at odds with the spirit of the XR parameters as I see it. (I totally recognize that my eyes might be bad in this regard.)
Now, I agree that the total feat count would be through the roof at 17 if all three the monk weapons and unarmed attack were rapt out w/ WF, GWF, WSpec, and EWspec on one race. Yet, the current feat count is 11, which is already on the high end of the high end. However, only a fourth (+EP) of the feats would actually be used by anything resembling a pure monk. (A fighter/monk with multiple weapon feat lines could be done, in theory, but this seems like no big deal to me.) Each type of monk would be at 3/2 (total=5) in actual usage.
I suggested that for the purposes of simplicity, i.e. fewer net XR races. To maintain that simplicity and use an unpopular though effective cludge, male dwarfs could specialize in fists and sticks (nanchaku) and females could wield kamas and goads. In this case, the feat count for each gender would be 10 or one less than the current total feat count for the non-sexually dimorphic race. I like simplicity as it maintains the drop distribution rate and minimizes/avoids duplication of monk subbie drops.
RE: rogue. Rogues are really tough to build and play. If the rogue race is halfling (which makes great sense and it uses a halfling slot which is key for a good distribution of races in the XR pool) then you get one enabler feat. Rogues have awful saves and need discipline to be effective tankers. This means both Legendary Strong Soul and LSA-Discipline are helpful/necessary for a pure rogue build. (Pally/BG are and dwarf/human are work arounds but not for the XR subbie. Even with sacrificing the SC line which is sad but basically necessary for offensive quasi-effectiveness still results in insufficient bread to slice for [pure] rogues.) Granted, rogues do not have it as bad as SD and Shifters, but rogues also don't have it as good as either of those classes in other respects. Deso's thread on enabler feats is terrific and I am glad to see it under consideration.
Why is irresistable damage better than internal, which I assumed stacked just based on some of my tanks having hundreds of points of internal dmg after some nasty battles in the Hive?
(It should be noted that I am a huge proponent for rogues, even splash rogues. I may have blinders on when gazing at my favorite class. My primary toon is a Barb with full rogue skills, it is really that bad. ^_^ )
I have no idea about the origin of this question and have nothing to add to the argument/discussion, but, just to answer that question:
Many mobs do have internal damage imm%--resist too maybe but only seen imm so far (I haven't access to KV data on every mob in the game though).
Again I have no idea about what your rogue thing is about. But keep in mind that internal damage is quite debilitating for PCs due to massive amounts. From what I recall on the chart, it said +5 internal damage. Unless that means it's adding 5 additional damage and creating a fester equal to the total hit--I'm assuming it just means a 5-pt fester, which would likely stack with each strike.
Is the entire blow is converted to a fester?
Then again maybe it does not produce a fester at all, and just deals +5 of internal type damage without the tick mechanism?