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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 14, 2013 22:57:34 GMT
I've made some final tweaks to the races, adding some Alertness, Mounted Combat, and Persuasion here and there. I've also added Arek's staffy monk race. If anyone has any final remarks, now's the time, as I'm going to begin implementing the subs in an hour or two.
Funky
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Post by Xiayu on Apr 14, 2013 23:55:03 GMT
Alu-Fiend (Rapier Wit) +2 str +2 dex +2 wis +2 int +6 cha
Any chance this race could get the +2 wisdom score moved? Most of the builds that would use this don't need the wisdom at all. Melee bards, CoTs, even paladins/blackguards won't need it to get the required 14 wisdom to cast spells. +3 to str/dex or even +2 con would be most helpful.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2013 0:12:58 GMT
Moving it to Con. It was already moved away from +3 str/dex, as being a bit too uni.
Thanks, Funky
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Post by arek on Apr 15, 2013 1:27:07 GMT
Half-Ogre Mage (Staffmaster) BURs aside, this has to compete with Spiker, Neraphim, Dao-kin, and Fallen, among others. All of those are very much viable for staffmasters, get a good ability spread, decent feats (even if 1-2 per race is non-applicable), and a good special. In its current form, I would only use Half-Ogre Mage if I got 2 of them before getting 2 of any of the others. With that in mind, some suggestions for Half-Ogre Mage (I suggested most of these before, but didn't even get a "not happening"):
First, the STR and INT could be switched around on H-O Mage, giving it +6 STR and +4 INT. Reasoning: Staffmasters need the STR more than they need the INT, since INT only governs what level of spells a staffmaster can cast. Even a pure wizard staffmaster needs STR for his/her DCs.
Second, the "special" needs improvement. +4 regen isn't much. +8 would be better, and granted gradually rather than all at once, tho I'd rather see some other special entirely (don't have any good ideas that haven't already been mentioned, tho).
Finally, the feats. If you think they're too much to grant a better special, then drop either SF: Concentration or Spring Attack. SF+ESF Concentration also seems rather weak, although with stiffer penalties coming in the EEs, those feats might be very welcome by the time this race is available to players.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2013 2:53:20 GMT
The ability scores were thoroughly hashed over with the team, and I had originally dismissed the int/str swap bc they need to hit 18, and start at 6. I can see that the str is more valuable, though, if you consider that they're going to keep taking it, but we felt that this would appeal more narrowly to them. At 6, they hit cost 2 by 12, and only have to pay that cost once to hit 18 with a +6, instead of paying out 2 and 3 multiple times for strength, so the lower value is obvious (and only slightly attenuated if they want 19 int pre-demi). Otoh, if you put the 6 in strength, you get max value from your points, using the 3 cost as much as possible to hit 20 before the boost.
Spiker, by comparion, loses 2 in the str dep't, and another two from race, making it down 4 GA feats, in rough equivalence. It gets 1 feat from human, and loses 2 more from feats, one of which is epic. We weighed phys imm at 10:25, meaning 20% is worth about 5 epic feats (if you peg ele 10/- imm feats at that ratio, which is roughly correlated to immunity, moreso now in PLs, where DR reduction will be more common as an analogue to vuln).
As I've said repeatedly, the 4 regen is not really weighed in this - it was flavor, added as as tossaway because Ogre Magi have it. Ignoring me, repeatedly, seriously dampens the persuasiveness of your argument, by the way.
Anyway, that leaves the total at:
Spiker -2(E) -2(E) +1 -2(1E) + 5(E): or, +0 pre-epic, +0 epic.
If you're serious in your contention that you would pick it over HO, it's probably a reflection of you valuing phys immunity more highly than that, though in fairness, we can mostly discount the ESF Conc, as SM will have it maxed anyway, so it'll only help against area pens (though those too will be considerably higher in PLs).
I agree, I'm not thrilled at the lack of a special for them, but if you don't suggest an alternative, there's little point to bringing it up.
Considering the math above, though, I could be persuaded to swap to 6 str 4 con. I wonder, though, if you wouldn't prefer 5 5 and 2 more ability points in con? I think players tend to undervalue Con of late, likely due to Paragon character/Legendary area imbalances, but I figured I'd offer, since Con is worth more than it was (20 hit points more, or 33%).
Funky
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Post by KnightErrant on Apr 15, 2013 3:07:32 GMT
Maybe too much but...
One cast of Blackstaff enchants all the quarterstaffs in their inventory ? Staffys usually lack a ton of spell slots...
KE.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2013 3:28:20 GMT
Actually, we could give them a % boost to their staff damage, now that they no longer benefit from the two-hander bonus. Nothing nuts, but nice and build-specific. 10% too much?
Funky
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Post by desocupado on Apr 15, 2013 3:37:00 GMT
Actually, we could give them a % boost to their staff damage, now that they no longer benefit from the two-hander bonus. Nothing nuts, but nice and build-specific. 10% too much? Funky For simplicity / standardization , how about the same as barbarian, 20%? (since this affect both monks and staff masters) (If they recover most of their concealment with shield it becomes a viable alternative) Staffmaster specialWell level VIII slots would surely help with the blackstaff issue.
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Post by Xiayu on Apr 15, 2013 3:49:36 GMT
Favored of Primus (Gnomish Inventor) Greater Dex 1 & 2, Extend Spell, WF: Xbow, EWF: Xbow, ESF: CW/CA
All possible combos for Gnomish Inventor and their respective glove's bonus:
30 rogue 10 wizard: Improved Critical, Power Critical, Superior Critical. 26 rogue 14 wizard: Improved Critical, Power Critical, Superior Critical. 24 rogue 16 wizard: Improved Critical, Power Critical, Superior Critical. 20 rogue 20 wizard: Improved Critical, Greater Weapon Focus, Overwhelming Critical, Devastating Critical. 18 rogue 22 wizard: Greater Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus. 16 rogue 24 wizard: Greater Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, Legendary Weapon Focus.
Gnomish Inventor feat requirement: SF: concentration/craft armor/craft weapon, SF: enchantment/transmutation, WF: Heavy Crossbow.
While EWF: Heavy Crossbow given by the XR subrace is useful to rogue CC, it is not for wizards. Maybe this could be swapped for Epic Prowess, or another feat required for quasiclass status (SF: CA/CW)?
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Post by desocupado on Apr 15, 2013 3:53:31 GMT
Favored of Primus (Gnomish Inventor) Greater Dex 1 & 2, Extend Spell, WF: Xbow, EWF: Xbow, ESF: CW/CA All possible combos for Gnomish Inventor and their respective glove's bonus: 30 rogue 10 wizard: Improved Critical, Power Critical, Superior Critical. 26 rogue 14 wizard: Improved Critical, Power Critical, Superior Critical. 24 rogue 16 wizard: Improved Critical, Power Critical, Superior Critical. 20 rogue 20 wizard: Improved Critical, Greater Weapon Focus, Overwhelming Critical, Devastating Critical. 18 rogue 22 wizard: Greater Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus. 16 rogue 24 wizard: Greater Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, Legendary Weapon Focus. Gnomish Inventor feat requirement: SF: concentration/craft armor/craft weapon, SF: enchantment/transmutation, WF: Heavy Crossbow. While EWF: Heavy Crossbow given by the XR subrace is useful to rogue CC, it is not for wizards. Maybe this could be swapped for Epic Prowess, or another feat required for quasiclass status (SF: CA/CW)? Good point: Swap EWF for EP (They don't really need additional non-epic feats, and Wizard 10 provide enough feats for SF - they are tight in epic/Legendary feats due Great Dexterity X requirement)
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Post by KnightErrant on Apr 15, 2013 4:03:44 GMT
Actually, we could give them a % boost to their staff damage, now that they no longer benefit from the two-hander bonus. Nothing nuts, but nice and build-specific. 10% too much? Funky That would be cool... Maybe give them immunity to concealment lowering from breach gear ? Would open up options for breach immunity other than ring slot... KE.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2013 4:45:55 GMT
Actually, we could give them a % boost to their staff damage, now that they no longer benefit from the two-hander bonus. Nothing nuts, but nice and build-specific. 10% too much? Funky For simplicity / standardization , how about the same as barbarian, 20%? (since this affect both monks and staff masters) (If they recover most of their concealment with shield it becomes a viable alternative) Because subraces are not intended to serve as class balancers, per previous discussions. That's why I asked if 10% was too MUCH, not too little. ;P Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2013 4:48:22 GMT
While EWF: Heavy Crossbow given by the XR subrace is useful to rogue CC, it is not for wizards. Maybe this could be swapped for Epic Prowess, or another feat required for quasiclass status (SF: CA/CW)? Sounds like a plan. EP it is. Thanks, Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 15, 2013 4:49:13 GMT
Actually, we could give them a % boost to their staff damage, now that they no longer benefit from the two-hander bonus. Nothing nuts, but nice and build-specific. 10% too much? Funky That would be cool... Maybe give them immunity to concealment lowering from breach gear ? Would open up options for breach immunity other than ring slot... KE. That seems powerful enough to be unbalancing to the class. Funky
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Post by Vichya on Apr 15, 2013 8:40:12 GMT
Reducing the concealment loss from 10% to 5% might be an option. That still means that the standard staffy will be hurt when going from 90% to 85%, but if he really wants to invest four feats (LSpF Illusion) he can keep his 90%.
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