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Post by desocupado on Apr 15, 2013 12:57:53 GMT
For simplicity / standardization , how about the same as barbarian, 20%? (since this affect both monks and staff masters) (If they recover most of their concealment with shield it becomes a viable alternative) Because subraces are not intended to serve as class balancers, per previous discussions. That's why I asked if 10% was too MUCH, not too little. ;P Funky I wasn't sure people were mentioning the subrace or the class (I meant the class in this case) Staffmaster Subrace:Anyway, for a special for Ogre-Magee... 1 - How about choosing size once between Medium or Large, like a Genie? 2 - Maybe ignoring/debuffing 10% Bludgeoning immunity/resistance on hit would work. Another interesting adjustment would be: - Charisma-2 and/or Wisdom-2
- for Str+2 and/or Dex+2.
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Post by arek on Apr 15, 2013 19:44:53 GMT
The ability scores were thoroughly hashed over with the team, and I had originally dismissed the int/str swap bc they need to hit 18, and start at 6. I can see that the str is more valuable, though, if you consider that they're going to keep taking it, but we felt that this would appeal more narrowly to them. At 6, they hit cost 2 by 12, and only have to pay that cost once to hit 18 with a +6, instead of paying out 2 and 3 multiple times for strength, so the lower value is obvious (and only slightly attenuated if they want 19 int pre-demi). Otoh, if you put the 6 in strength, you get max value from your points, using the 3 cost as much as possible to hit 20 before the boost. Spiker, by comparion, loses 2 in the str dep't, and another two from race, making it down 4 GA feats, in rough equivalence. It gets 1 feat from human, and loses 2 more from feats, one of which is epic. We weighed phys imm at 10:25, meaning 20% is worth about 5 epic feats (if you peg ele 10/- imm feats at that ratio, which is roughly correlated to immunity, moreso now in PLs, where DR reduction will be more common as an analogue to vuln). As I've said repeatedly, the 4 regen is not really weighed in this - it was flavor, added as as tossaway because Ogre Magi have it. Ignoring me, repeatedly, seriously dampens the persuasiveness of your argument, by the way. Anyway, that leaves the total at: Spiker -2(E) -2(E) +1 -2(1E) + 5(E): or, +0 pre-epic, +0 epic. If you're serious in your contention that you would pick it over HO, it's probably a reflection of you valuing phys immunity more highly than that, though in fairness, we can mostly discount the ESF Conc, as SM will have it maxed anyway, so it'll only help against area pens (though those too will be considerably higher in PLs). I agree, I'm not thrilled at the lack of a special for them, but if you don't suggest an alternative, there's little point to bringing it up. Considering the math above, though, I could be persuaded to swap to 6 str 4 con. I wonder, though, if you wouldn't prefer 5 5 and 2 more ability points in con? I think players tend to undervalue Con of late, likely due to Paragon character/Legendary area imbalances, but I figured I'd offer, since Con is worth more than it was (20 hit points more, or 33%). Funky For absolute maximum STR yes, Spiker is down 4 points, and gains just 2 INT in the exchange. It does have a good special, however, and all of the feats are applicable to staffmasters. Yes, I was giving reduced value to SF/ESF: Conc as well. About the regen, I wasn't ignoring you, I simply hadn't seen those comments, tho I did suspect that was the case. Yes, I would be very happy with the spread becoming something like +5 STR, +2 DEX, +4 CON, +5 INT. Actually, we could give them a % boost to their staff damage, now that they no longer benefit from the two-hander bonus. Nothing nuts, but nice and build-specific. 10% too much? Funky This sounds good. 20% would be too much, I agree, in the event that further balance edits are made for 2-handers. --Arek
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 16, 2013 4:20:25 GMT
About the regen, I wasn't ignoring you, I simply hadn't seen those comments, tho I did suspect that was the case. Sorry, I tend to assume that people read all of the posts in the forum, as I do. Not super-realistic, especially in a 3-part 18+ page thread. I don't anticpate further two-hander edits. If SMs are still hurting too much, we can up bstaff damage somewhat. Staffy monks should be in line with kama/goad/nunchaku monks, though hopefully with some offensive edge to compensate for their inability to switch to offhanding something else. Funky
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Post by chirality on Apr 16, 2013 8:34:41 GMT
Well isn't that just an inherent feature of any 2-hander build? Any build specializing in 2-handed weapon suffers this vs. dual-wielders. Why would this have to be made up for to balance with dual wielder monk? As far as popular opinion seems to go, some have always held staff monk to be "good" even before the 2h dmg change since with proper subby/build/gear it can be nice. Your comment seems to indicate that you think after nerfing 2h dmg, staff monk is worse than dual wielder monks, but is this the case? Keep in mind staff can't be slagged which is one of the main reason that dual wielders/metal weapon 2handers will swap weapons sometimes.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 16, 2013 15:59:53 GMT
Your comment seems to indicate that you think after nerfing 2h dmg, staff monk is worse than dual wielder monks, but is this the case? My comment indicated no such thing. I expressed the goal, and said nothing about where I think they are at present, because it's almost impossible to tell so soon after a major edit. This also has little to do with the topic at hand. Funky
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Post by kaezar on Apr 21, 2013 16:55:26 GMT
Could the base race from Phoelarch (Str BFM/DSM subby) be changed to Elf? Not only Str is too important an ability for those types of chars to be given a -2 race, as the images you find to the creature on the internet are all like this, which makes it a bit strange for gnome. That would change the final ability bonus to the race from Str 4 Dex 0 Con 4 to Str 6 Con 0 Dex 2, which is, I think, more adequate to a BFM tank. Also, gnome also gives sf: illusion, which was no use to the class whatsoever. With Elf, the subby will give able learner, which is good buy unlikely to be earth-shaking since int will not be out of bonds. Take care Kaezar
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 21, 2013 17:28:16 GMT
Heh. Able learner on an RDD class. Cute. It's already implemented as gnome, and I see little reason to change it in your remarks. We're well aware of what phoelarchs look like, as many of the pictures you link to are taken from sourcebooks. It's one of only a handful of gnome races, and doesn't even suffer from being small, as it's slated for an elven appearance (with wings 31 - nevermind the later transformation). As to the illusion focus, if being able to make use of all the characteristics of a race were a requirement, gnomes could only be casters. There is, however, an interesting statting quirk there. The gnome sub brings the class from having a 6, and thus getting 14 points, to having no 6, and qualifying for 16 points, which it doesn't get, and disadvantages it compared to other melees. Swaps to other races have secondary consequences that I'm not willing to take the time to think through at this late juncture. On the face of it, human and half-elf are also out of the question, given the added benefits in feats and skill availability, and they would be the next most appropriate after elf. So. I'll give them a +2 Str bump to offset the gnome and correct the statting quirk. Happily, after a quick glance, it appears that this is the only race with such a quirk. Thanks, Funky
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Post by kaezar on Apr 22, 2013 0:43:40 GMT
Uh? Doh. Brain fart, thought RDD got 4 skill points/level.
But I disgress. Yeah, with the changes my objections are gone.
Take care Kaezar
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Post by dynneroth on Jan 19, 2014 19:00:07 GMT
I'm going to try to slide this in at the eleventh hour. I skimmed all the pages of this thread, and I will get around to reading in their entirety all the pages of this thread eventually, but I really wanted to throw out a concept that has been rolling around in my head for a few days. If I'm too late with it, sorry. I just wanted to share.
Class - Race - Subrace Name - Rarity - New name - Source material Paladin - Halfling - Arvoreen's Keeper (a prestige class) - XR - Arvoreni - Dragon Magazine, July 2004 Halfling Stat Bonus/Penalty: Strength -2, Dexterity +2 Arvoreni Stat Bonuses/Penalties: Strength +6, Dexterity -2, Constitution +4, Charisma +6 Halfling Feat, Skill, and Special Ability Bonuses: FC - Rogue, can take Legendary Luck without Luck of Heroes, Skill Affinity - Move Silently, Skill Affinity - Listen, Lucky, Fearless, Good Aim, Small Stature Arvoreni Feat, Skill, and Special Ability Bonuses: FC - Paladin, Great Strength I/II, Great Smiting, True Knockdown Immunity at level 40
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Post by condude on Jan 19, 2014 21:27:58 GMT
True KD immune seems a bit OP, no?
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Post by dynneroth on Jan 19, 2014 22:26:46 GMT
I think it's worth a look to see if it is or it isn't. If it is OP, then switch it out for Aura of Courage which would give everyone inside the aura radius fear immunity with a timer and cooldown timer on the aura similar to the timers on Greater Sanctuary.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Jan 19, 2014 23:12:03 GMT
I think if you're going to try and have something of a direct XR upgrade from the BUR equivalent of the Half-Eladrin subrace, it should probably be something closer to this: +9 STR, +7 CHA, Great CHA I/II, Great Smite I, Extra Smiting, Divine Shield, and either 20 second cooldown reduction on Greater Smite or an extra 4 dice of smite damage.
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Post by dynneroth on Jan 20, 2014 17:49:23 GMT
I wasn't exactly looking for a direct XR upgrade from Half-Eladrin. I was moving it away from gnome, which has a BUR paladin option, to Halfling, which has no paladin options at all and is a little neglected on the subby front. Also, I was trying to take into account that gnome has a -2 Strength modifier and halfling doesn't. But I wouldn't have a problem with +9 STR, +7 CHA, and the rest of your suggestions. Although I do like the idea of an XR subby paladin having an aura of courage. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Jan 20, 2014 19:32:01 GMT
Unfortunately, halfling, like gnome, does have a -2 STR penalty. It just gets a +2 DEX penalty, whereas gnome gets +2 CON. Though, because Smiter builds seem to be terribly tight on skill points (and gnome gets +2 skills per level), a halfling paladin/BG subrace could benefit from a +2 INT bonus as well.
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Post by dynneroth on Jan 20, 2014 22:36:09 GMT
Ah, was confusing the penalties. Take away the +2 DEX and give it a +2 INT sounds good. I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote that post now. Obviously I didn't know then either.
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