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Post by leid on Feb 6, 2014 0:35:21 GMT
I made a test build with favored of Gruumsh, and I just cannot figure out what this race is good for. -2 int from half orc in addition to the loss of 1 skill per level relative to human (which you would use for a koly build) make you have to invest heavily into int to make it get the skills it needs, the feat setup makes it impossible to get enough WM levels pre-epic to get a decent BAB (17 is my minimum), if you go fighter instead (referring to the very popular 22 Monk 13 WM 5 HS build) you lose a few AB, and crit range and multiplier, and dont really get anything good for it. the extra wis helps makes up for the loss of dex, so AC comes out OK in the end.. but ultimately the build comes out weaker than the current standard staff monk build by quite a margin. The current setup made is so the extra STR you get really means nothing because i had to lower my str, and even take int on 3 level ups to get enough skills to even get close to whats needed (and actually didnt quite make it) and even the extra fighter feats in epic were mostly spent taking more Great STR making up for the STR sacrificed earlier in the build, so it was 0 sum in that department.
Maybe there's some amazing build that can be made out of it that eludes me, but i don't see it. I'm thinking this subby needs a rework lest it becomes just another book that pales in comparison to the almighty Kolyarut.
IMO give it +2 int to make up for the loss from half-orc, and give it any one of the WM prereq feats (it's only one short) and give it the WS and EWS as originally suggested (I'd even trade one of the current epic bonus feats for it), and then this sub will be worth building.
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Post by chirality on Feb 6, 2014 1:49:59 GMT
Just trying to be helpful: 1. Well, this was noticed and discussed/debated since page 1 of this same thread (if you go back and read Arek's posts, he was concerned with the same issues as you pointed out and continued attempting to improve the sub throughout the thread). 2. Funky took notice and was open to suggestions; I think if you can provide some good reasons why it's not currently balanced, then who knows?. However I note your critiques happen to be some that already were mentioned. Here's 2 quotes I found upon re-reading the thread which seem like they might be important to notice in this case (and my apologies to both him and you if I'm out of line by putting words in his mouth or even responding to something that I shouldn't be--as usual ) -------- (this one was not in response to the Staff Monk issue, but might still be worth reading in regard to the "koly is better"-based argument) comparing anything to koly is a terrible place to begin a persuasive argument, unless you're saying you would actually prefer koly for the class/quasi in question. I'm tempted to lock koly to a race and be done with it. Funky (Even given the Gruumsh's downsides, I think when all is considered, the bottom line is the claim that the sub isn't worth using in favor of koly; that's basically what you said right?) ---- I specifically avoided WM feats. I feel the special is pretty nice, which is why the large number of pre-epics. Epic Prowess sounds ok, though. Funky (So I don't think you're going to make any headway with suggesting WM prereq feats either ) It looked like the WS feats were ultimately turned down due to impinging on build diversity (?). Anyway, I'm not sure if the Gruumsh discussion didn't just kind of trail off with other concerns, so maybe upon some re-review others would agree that it's still lacking. But it looked like at the end, there was a last attempt by Funky to make it more favorable, and after that there wasn't any more discussion or complaints really. I guess it looked legit enough?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 6, 2014 1:56:46 GMT
Maybe there's some amazing build that can be made out of it that eludes me, but i don't see it. I'm thinking this subby needs a rework lest it becomes just another book that pales in comparison to the almighty Kolyarut. It's for a staff monk, per the XR Subby spreadsheet, here: Click MeFunky
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Post by leid on Feb 6, 2014 2:50:24 GMT
I know it's for a staff monk. Staff monk is what i was referring to.
Anyway, giving it a WM prereq feat that is useful outside of WMs (expertise comes to mind?) would actually open the build to more possibilities, as it's currently impossible to build it in an ideal way as WM. As far as comparing something to Koly.. If Koly is currently the best way to build something, why is it verbotten to compare.. are XRs not supposed to be a step up from BURs?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 6, 2014 2:57:56 GMT
You can find plentiful discussion on that topic if you search these boards. The crux of it is that we're not doing Any subs anymore, as they're a balancing nightmare. And it isn't forbidden, as I think is pretty clear from my quote.
Funky
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Post by leid on Feb 6, 2014 3:06:26 GMT
Mmmmmmok. Your quote is what forbids it. Well, I guess this just means i don't have to worry about reincing
I just think that when designing the XRs, you should look at whatever race currently makes the best toon of the intended class, and the benchmark should be making the XR better than that BUR.. otherwise what's the point?
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Post by bazukar on Feb 6, 2014 3:38:49 GMT
A problem with the gruumush sub is that it's a great monk tank sub, but rather lackluster for a staff monk. Looking at that sub it would be amazing for a pure monk tank of invincibility; super high conceal and I could use several epic and bonus feats for more SR and defenses rather than armor skin and prowess. Unfortunately this sub doesn't help with damage. Qstaff nerf aside, a staff monk's primary role is damage, and nothing in this sub is particularly condusive to that. No specialization or crit feats, and while weapon foci are nice, now I begin to run into feat glut at lower levels. Also while armor skin and prowess are great as bonus feats on paper, any staff monk that goes pure or 30 levels doesn't have much choice on bonus feats now as 2 of the only good three are had already, and the rest are pretty awful. And having to take a hit to int makes an already skillpoint tight archetype even more starved for skillpoints.
I would not use this sub, or recommend it for a staffmonk. There are bur subs (even besides koly) that would fit the bill far better either through stat spread, bonus feats or immunities.
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Post by bazukar on Feb 6, 2014 3:48:37 GMT
I just think that when designing the XRs, you should look at whatever race currently makes the best toon of the intended class, and the benchmark should be making the XR better than that BUR.. otherwise what's the point? I'd hesitate to use that as a benchmark. I'd try to make the XR at least as desirable for the intended archetype as the primary default race(s)with a focus on multiple build paths.
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Post by leid on Feb 6, 2014 3:50:06 GMT
I just think that when designing the XRs, you should look at whatever race currently makes the best toon of the intended class, and the benchmark should be making the XR better than that BUR.. otherwise what's the point? I'd hesitate to use that as a benchmark. I'd try to make the XR at least as desirable for the intended archetype as the primary default race(s)with a focus on multiple build paths. I can see that, though right now i have a hard time thinking of any build path of the intended line (staff monk) i would use that sub for.
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Post by chirality on Feb 6, 2014 4:40:12 GMT
while weapon foci are nice, now I begin to run into feat glut at lower levels. Also while armor skin and prowess are great as bonus feats on paper, any staff monk that goes pure or 30 levels doesn't have much choice on bonus feats now as 2 of the only good three are had already, and the rest are pretty awful. That's a pretty big deal to me (arg, evil crappy bonus feat lists!) which I never paid attention to/noticed back then--I blame myself for nubbishly recommending! Stay out of pro business!. Well, Obviously no one would ever make a pure staff monk without some yet-to-come incentivize (or if they did they'd face a terrible-bonus-feat-list dilemma nearly as bad anyway; what would those other 2 go for anyway?), and obviously any 30 monk build is guaranteed to take Armor Skin + Epic Prowess for their 2. So yeah, removing those 2 from the pool is pretty fail in terms of making that sub viable for 30 monk builds; that's a direct hit to build diversity which I guess was the whole point in the first place. So really it does seem like either improved stats and/or different bonus feats which happen to be WS/wm prereqs... What I don't really get is the Half-Orc thing in the first place. I mean I see the goal of XR subs being attempted at spreading around amongst the different base races, and yeah I get that there's not many H-O XR subs: I see what, 3? Str sin, 1 str tank, and this Gruumsh, cause naturally it's a crap race for nearly anything, and then even for Str sin (and we all know everyone's view on sins nowdays) Blooded is zero help; in fact heh the XR one gets Bullheaded anyway ). Seems like a lot of trouble to make this sub attractive just for the sake of having Half-Orcs. Maybe Dwarf and Half-Orc both could get option to swap either Bullheaded/Blooded at char creation to make it cooler all-around and make H-O less lame. Regardless, yeah...shrug. Maybe drop both those bonus feats in exchange for like...I dunno some Leg save feat or something? (trying to think of something other than pre-epic feat and/or WS and/or WM feat) Or +skill bonus @ 41 like gnomes? Or .. edit: eh I know the feat swap idea is lame and silly but just popped into my head (as far as dwarf goes, I recall some lower-tier dwarf subs that could be nice for classes that don't need LSA Disc anyway; that said dwarf doesn't exactly need buff anyway since it's already good for non-pal/bg splash tanks I guess) maybe +lowish% staff damage to help assuage the bruises caused by 2h nerf
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Post by Retribution on Feb 6, 2014 4:56:05 GMT
Mmmmmmok. Your quote is what forbids it. Well, I guess this just means i don't have to worry about reincing I just think that when designing the XRs, you should look at whatever race currently makes the best toon of the intended class, and the benchmark should be making the XR better than that BUR.. otherwise what's the point? In almost all cases that has been done, however Koly is known to be OP and has been a balancing nightmare for the devs (just look at how many builds use it ahead of BUR subs designed for their class). This is why a koly upgrade isn't slated, and why Funky says comparing vs Koly is a bad idea (basically Koly is already XR). That's not to say I disagree there needs to be rebalancing of this sub, if no build would ever use it.
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Post by leid on Feb 6, 2014 5:23:26 GMT
Mmmmmmok. Your quote is what forbids it. Well, I guess this just means i don't have to worry about reincing I just think that when designing the XRs, you should look at whatever race currently makes the best toon of the intended class, and the benchmark should be making the XR better than that BUR.. otherwise what's the point? In almost all cases that has been done, however Koly is known to be OP and has been a balancing nightmare for the devs (just look at how many builds use it ahead of BUR subs designed for their class). This is why a koly upgrade isn't slated, and why Funky says comparing vs Koly is a bad idea (basically Koly is already XR). That's not to say I disagree there needs to be rebalancing of this sub, if no build would ever use it. right, im not saying it should be better for *everything* the way koly is, it should just be better for staff monk.
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Post by condude on Feb 6, 2014 5:49:45 GMT
Maybe add +1 to Str/Dex and +2 to Con on koly and make it drop as an XR?
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Post by bazukar on Feb 6, 2014 7:22:12 GMT
Koly isn't OP per se; it simply has perfect attribute distribution for all melee characters. Add to that the need for some form of uni status on runs and koly wins. Even if you removed all the feats and FC from koly the stats alone would make it preferred. Even assuming koly was nerfed or removed the most balanced stat sub would be the next koly, no matter what the intended use of subs is due to the need for tanks to have a strong offstat. ( i personally love half-guard ) As far as the gruumush sub goes and alterations you need to decide what the focus of the staff monk archetype is. I think its main role is frontline damage dealer with secondary tank utility. Whatever the role decided is,the sub should facilitate this. Atm, it looks to me like the ultimate monk tanking sub. I'd probably completely ignore the Qstaff WF and use a nunchuck and torch for even more defense. I think this sub could use focus in the damage department. I'd love to see OC or DC (or both heck), cleave feats or possibly weapon spec. Maybe a legendary level feat? The dex is lower than I would like on a tank sub, and I don't really care much about wisdom on a monk tank as long as it isnt sub 10 at creation. The stat spread is rough, I don't really gain much over bur subs as I need to pump my int and dex for skillpoints and skillchecks. One last thing. With the quarterstaff damage nerf I don't see much reason to build a Qstaff monk anymore. It's a defanged damagedealer that just tanks decently. I created the 22/13/5 staffmonk, got it 5x with prince wins and coming back and playing it now is just...sad And I feel for my staffmaster brethren as well. PS. There is an upgraded koly. Spiker.
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Post by Raj on Feb 6, 2014 9:14:35 GMT
The Gruumsh chosen stat spread is nothing great, but afterall it provides two epic feats and a very good unique, so it deserves its XR tier. Sure, a crappy XR, but we have spelljammers in the game remember Btw, there's been no staff monk nerf, their +50% bonus has been introduced in this update, quickly deemed as more overpowered than koly ( ) and removed one year after here, a period in which people enjoyed a broken class with high offence and defense, but monk role on this server has always been more defensive, and there were some okay staff monk builds around prior 2012. Speaking about defensive power, +5% concealment is simply huge.
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