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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 8, 2013 18:32:54 GMT
- Theurge (Lloth-Touched) I am a bit confused on the cleric special, it doesn’t look very useful to me. I would prefer them both to have either the lore bonus or +1 to spell penetration instead and move the 150 lore cap to CC Wizard XR. Check the updated journal entry on poison. It's been that way for a long time, but the journal hadn't been updated in ages. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 8, 2013 18:35:31 GMT
With that in mind, I thought of a couple of different feat layouts for the race that won't be quite so powerful in the hands of a staffmaster. In what way do you think these are less powerful for SMs? No Int pen still looks like a nonstarter to me. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 8, 2013 18:37:16 GMT
Subraces have had their final pass. If you have any further remarks or complaints, now's the time.
Thanks, Funky
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Post by pete on Apr 8, 2013 19:25:06 GMT
With that in mind, I thought of a couple of different feat layouts for the race that won't be quite so powerful in the hands of a staffmaster. In what way do you think these are less powerful for SMs? No Int pen still looks like a nonstarter to me. Funky since its half orc base race it will have -2 int at creation, making it -4 seems overkill, monks need skills too out of curiosity why does the RDD sub have the dodge feat? I don't know of any current RDD builds that take it (IIRC dodge is only taken on builds as a prerequisite for other feats such as epic dodge or spring attack, which RDDs don't take. power attack or the normal toughness feat may be more fitting
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Post by chirality on Apr 8, 2013 19:36:01 GMT
I see a very satisfying chart at the moment in terms of names. Great work; some are really well-chosen and I only have a handful of complaints/suggestions: --Half-Djinni/Half-Efreeti I think these should be just full Djinn and full Efreet. It seems more in line with XR power especially since full Genie is already a BUR. I don't see any conflict in power or appy with just going full for these 2; after all they can still change form to be humanoid. --Half-Janni I don't see what this has to do with being a turner, and again why is it only Half-Janni anyway? My suggestion is Asura. Or Saint (which sounds lame but I think is pretty appropriate--it's a template from BoED). --Dao-kin Similar to above should just be full Dao. I can't think of anything better to replace Dao, although it's unfortunate that genie-based races now compose a large plurality of the new subs. What about Galeb Duhr? --Favored of Primus This is very appropriate but I think Favored of Gond would be more appropriate for two reasons: a) Gond is a FR deity rather than a lesser-known Planescape entity; b) Gond fits in perfectly to the theme both in terms of the dogma/flavor as well as being for a gnome sub. --Llolth-Touched Even having a good fit as Elf subraces, Llolth-Touched seems clumsy. The over-saturation of drow theme is unfortunate; however if that's to be kept I'd rather see a nod to FR history--what about Ilythiiri? This makes sense as the pre-drow dark elves of Ilythiir were the first (after some Vyshaan) to begin consorting with evil gods (inlcuding Lolth), and could therefore be considered as some of the "original" theurges. I know this EXTREMELY ancient FR history, but I think it still makes perfect sense for a supremely-powerful XR elf sub: survivors of a truly ancient empire. There's no reason that some "original" drow could not have survived from the time of the original Crown Wars. Likewise, and this one I really would pick more, how about Vyshaan (Vyshaanti)? These were the true "evil geniuses" of the Crown Wars and engineered the fall of the drow. A Vyshaan theurge could have survived for many millenia and this would serve to divorce this XR sub from Drow Noble by not touching on drow or Lolth.
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Post by gandoron on Apr 8, 2013 19:45:46 GMT
Are the stat number numbers after the subrace edits or before? If it's doesn't look like Half-Orc isn't getting the 2 stat boost.
-G
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Post by pete on Apr 8, 2013 20:25:49 GMT
Since the BUR subs in the same list are shown without the base race alterations I have been assuming the XRs are shown without the base race alterations (I guess it would be confusing with the "any" base race subs).
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Post by arek on Apr 8, 2013 20:33:24 GMT
With that in mind, I thought of a couple of different feat layouts for the race that won't be quite so powerful in the hands of a staffmaster. In what way do you think these are less powerful for SMs? No Int pen still looks like a nonstarter to me. Funky They're less powerful in the hands of a staffmaster in that they don't enable the user to get Legendary/Paragon weapon specialization, which is quite powerful for any build. That said, the feat spread chirality mentioned (WF/GWF/IC QS, Armor Skin, Epic Prowess) is good, yet not one I would choose over H-O Mage for a staffmaster, even without an extra int penalty. If you still think an additional INT penalty is needed on top of the penalty Half-Orc already gets, the following ability spread would work: STR +6, DEX +2, CON +4, WIS +4, INT -2 (Total +14) gandoron all of my ability spread suggestions have been in the format I always understood the subrace ability spreads to be in, meaning they don't include the bonuses/penalties from the base race (in this case, half-orc). Thus the original spread would give a total of +8 STR and -2 INT/CHA, while the spread I just listed gives a total of +8 STR, -4 INT, and -2 CHA (not including scores unaffected by the base race in either case). --Arek
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Post by gandoron on Apr 8, 2013 23:45:51 GMT
Staffmaster - Half-Ogre Mage
I’m not sure what happened to this subrace. It has 2 less stats than koly (after half-orc stat change), same number of feats, and less dex, so hurts all the str/uni or dex builds. Basically I think Koly is superior. The 6 int is over kill for a melee staffy I’d rather only have 4 int and 4 more stat points elsewhere. Is this designed only for a wiz-CC? If so will there be a melee staffy subrace (am I missing it somewhere on the sheet)?
Feats seem very mediocre, they lost the big special (imm to aoe mord), “regen +4” isn’t much (is that just an oversight), still have “extra feats” as one special, but only 3 feats. Did WS/EWS get dropped due to the staff monk issue?
Right now the entire subrace seems underpowered
If the stats on the sheet are “pre subrace” then I would give it 2 more dex, making it 6/4 str dex after mods, comparable to koly and having only on 6 stat (because int drops to 4) matching the 14 stat point distro (well 16 pt before half-orc application).
then I think it need 1-2 more feats, or WS/EWS back, or potentially a great special would offset that.
Edit: the feat cells weren't wrapping text properly in excel. I think the feats are fine, though would be nice to have a useful special, even extended buffs (premo), +1 to weap buffs to self only, or something
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 0:02:09 GMT
out of curiosity why does the RDD sub have the dodge feat? I don't know of any current RDD builds that take it (IIRC dodge is only taken on builds as a prerequisite for other feats such as epic dodge or spring attack, which RDDs don't take. power attack or the normal toughness feat may be more fitting No idea why shard put it there. I left it there because dracotaurs get racial bonuses to balance, swim, and jump checks, and I couldn't think of more fitting feats, other than Armor Skin (and it already had 5 epic feats). Funky
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Post by gandoron on Apr 9, 2013 0:07:29 GMT
The original RDD bur race Salamander, had dodge and mobility. I assume this was to help get to WM splashes a bit faster imho, and gives a +AC which is fitting for an RDD. Power attack or something might be more fitting, but the number of feats is high. -G
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 0:38:26 GMT
--Half-Djinni/Half-Efreeti I think these should be just full Djinn and full Efreet. It seems more in line with XR power especially since full Genie is already a BUR. I don't see any conflict in power or appy with just going full for these 2; after all they can still change form to be humanoid. I agree in terms of power, but I wanted to avoid the use of non-dynamic appearances, per the guidelines back on page one. I ran into that a lot, and in the cases where we have a really good appearance, it was hard-pressed to resist, but I mostly did. Otherwise, Half-Goliaths would instead be Khaastas (FF 115). Sam reasoning holds for most of the below. It's composed of all 4 elements, which I figured would give it some edge in turning. The other option was to make a sub with an alt that was opposite in alignement, and lock each to good or evil, but that would've broken with our past practice. In that case, either a celestial like Justice Archon or a Lumi would've been the good, and I would've picked something like Shadowswyft for the evil. Aside from the obvious non-parallelism, there were too many other issues, to say nothing of appearances. Dwarven defenders have to be part dwarf. Also, we have no appearance at all for Galeeb Duhr, and it's a pretty bad match in other respects, other than being stone-related. A lesser known Planescape entity? He's the boss of the modrons, and lives in Mechanus, which is both firmly established in the Realms multiverse and in our mod. Did you not notice the modron in Zerial's? There's a lot more ties to gnomes and Primus in our mod than to Gond - see also the Toyshop, whose boss calls down the Mechanus cannon. I'm happy to add an alt, however, since Gond is definitely a fit, despite me finding him somewhat cheesetastic, like Tinker Gnome Lite. I don't see why we'd want to divorce the sub from Drow Noble, and I'm not aware of any over-saturation. There was just way more source material handy on Llolth-Touched, which was a perfect match for 'favored' or 'chosen'. See MM4 pp92-94. Not really interested in swapping out subs at this point, so much as I am in honing the ones picked both in terms of their fit to their classes and in balance with each other and their BUR precursors. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 0:39:22 GMT
Are the stat number numbers after the subrace edits or before? If it's doesn't look like Half-Orc isn't getting the 2 stat boost. -G Before. A number get more than a +8 boost to their primary for this reason. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 0:47:00 GMT
If the stats on the sheet are “pre subrace” then I would give it 2 more dex, making it 6/4 str dex after mods, comparable to koly and having only on 6 stat (because int drops to 4) matching the 14 stat point distro (well 16 pt before half-orc application). Your other remarks aside, comparing anything to koly is a terrible place to begin a persuasive argument, unless you're saying you would actually prefer koly for the class/quasi in question. I'm tempted to lock koly to a race and be done with it. Funky
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Post by chirality on Apr 9, 2013 1:41:03 GMT
----Not trying to waste more (of your) time with this post, nor the super-long earlier post. Just figured I might as well offer final thoughts on names for the heck of it.---- Okay. Good points. Thanks for taking the time to consider. Gond--Yeah...true. I did not miss the connections already extant in the mod (I love Pulpa btw), although I shamefacedly admit that I did forget about Toyshop. And, very good point on "tinker gnome lite". Agreed. Primus is great. The genie races shouldn't be problematic appy-wise due to ability to shift forms (via Change Shape Su abilities in 3e/3.5; allowing full range of S/M/L Humanoid/Giant forms; this would include base NWN "craftable" races). One other sub name for which I wonder about potential improvement is the Fallen. This one is unfamiliar to me and I suspect it is "original" much like the LT sub. Admittedly the LT one is very hard to draw a line on. I don't have any better suggestions here except another Favored. The BK Fallen should be easy to do though--if shapechanging fiends that assume humanoid form aren't attractive (Shadurakul--coolest-sounding canomoprh)how about something like: --Hellbred (FC2) --Half-Klurichir (Yes, lots of half-outsider names already but it's as good a plurality as any, and Klurichir is pretty sweet, seems well-suited to a BK melee specialist) Fallen is too similar to Fallen Angel to me, even disregarding the (as far as I can tell) lack of "real" lore basis.
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