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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 5:28:06 GMT
Lol, funky. giving EWF instead of both SF/ESF conc would do it, but that's a lot of feats. Also fits for staff monks. I know WS/EWS was in the initial subby, however that allows the entire spec progression of feats, right? You could also just give it a good special, potentially one that fits staffy. That would potentially offset the spiker's lead of 20% blud, +2 cha, Human (+1 skill/lvl and more flex, such as no LSA tumble and monk splash). Going from Human to HO cost 1 skill/lvl, way more than the SF/ESF conc made up for if you are counting skill points. I had suggested 3 before: +1 die to FW/SW if cast on self. EV gets a contingency like effect 1/rest +10 to dispel checks Immunity to Area Mord (was this considered OP to begin with?) I'm trying in earnest to come up with reasonable ideas. Some people put a lot of time into these subs, trying to respect that! Here are the SM attributes that most of the builds that might use this class wouldn't have Qstaff (staff monk shares this) buff caster high dodge rate, due to conceal The specials I noted above try to fit this, as would something like "epic dodge", but that's way OP. You're thinking in the right direction, but ideally it'll fit the HOM sub as well as the quasi. We *COULD* swap to Half-Eldritch Giant, but I'd really prefer to avoid that, and they seem similar in nature. Armor Skin would also fit the sub, but accomplishes neither of the other two goals. To be clear, there are three basic goals: 1) Fit the characteristics to the sub 2) Fit the characteristics to the quasi/class 3) End up being the best set of characteristics for the quasi/class Not necessarily in that order. Probably the reverse of that order. But 1 and 2 are pretty close in importance, waaaaaaaaaay back behind #3. You place too much importance on columns. And labels. And labeled columns. Everything is a special. Hell, the Slinger subby had 63 listen in the skill column at one point. Isn't that special? Church lady sure as hell thinks so. And I bet someone's going to use that Intimidate to make some bizarre build anyway. Funky
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 5:42:49 GMT
If dropping ruin is not the answer then I would say the answer is ruin needs a DC boost for PL. I think dropping ruin is the answer--as well as the wiz DC boost. Neither seem appropriate for each class--if anything swapping them around seems more suitable. But either way the DC boost is pretty tough to balance. At face value, and for lower-level and/or low demi play, Ruin seems very nice, but you're right that with 65 max it eventually becomes pretty unattractive. And editing that atm seems to start getting pretty complicated. Or are you saying drop Ruin for sorc in exchange for something better, and keep wiz the same? If so I am lost for what to give sorc then. I'd rather drop both specials and do GSP + Emp + Great Stat II for both and call it a day. 4 needed feats + one more needed feat as special? But then that starts to look too strong compared to other caster subs...meh. Maybe reverting to the original and doing 4 feats + some kind of immunity would be good. Something a little easier to draw a clear line of comparison for "that special = that special"...feats is the easiest but 5 needed feats seems overkill. If mords/breach/dispel is out (which sounds good to me, it's better reserved for caster tank specials), then I'm at a loss. Everything I can think of seems either too weak and fluffy or too strong. I basically agree with this post, I'm pretty undecided on the special though. I think Armor Skin should be scrapped, sorc given SP+GSP + Great Stat II only. Sorcs have always been more offensive casters, wizard get a lot more defensive perks. Maybe sorcerer could get their original defensive perk of breach immunity and wizard can keep their offensive perk of +1 dc to 0-6 lvl spells.
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Post by chirality on Apr 9, 2013 6:09:15 GMT
Agreed.
I'd still rather see wiz get ruins and sorc get lowbie insta DC; it just seems to have more reasonable synergy. That argument is counter-productive to your point of giving wiz more offense and sorc more defense though.
My thing with Ruin is basically, it is providing a "new" kill option vs. not having it. +DC for essentially a handful of spells is nice but isn't doing anything "new". It's not providing an option to insta mobs that otherwise is unavailable. That said, your point on ruin is incontrovertible (and eh I'm a noob anyway so what do I know about landing ruin on p3s with huge saves). However if Ruin ever DOES get tweaked to respect PLs for better DC, then suddenly free ruin + extra ruin becomes pretty good (right?). After all, it's not "bad" by any means--as far as I understand, most sorcs wouldn't mind having it at all (just not at the cost of their own feats); it's just not as good an option as another SF rank, especially with PL build options considered. So I can't argue that maybe atm the ruins isn't as good, but I think if it was edited to "once again" enjoy effect of "uber DC" (as once was the case), then this would become very valuable for sorcs, no? Sure, it's not a free "needed" feat, but it does make for an improvement in killing versatility, which I think is more important than a 1-point difference in landing the same spells for wiz. edit: What I mean is that ruin is problematic because as far as I can tell it's either too strong (if DC upped) or too weak (if DC left alone, vs. +1 DC for CoD/Disint/UtD...Fear/Enervate...meh StF is whatever...)
Either way, in the end I think both specials are very strong.
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Post by pete on Apr 9, 2013 7:58:53 GMT
Oops this got edited and i cant remember what i said here
well the important stuff is all quoted below anyway
pete
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Post by chirality on Apr 9, 2013 8:59:51 GMT
eh for some players/builds/runs 3 free ruins on top of basic pwner sorc build is pretty nuts
I didn't mean to knock it, just agreeing with laser, I (think I) can see why he is saying he wouldn't care overly much for it, and atm sorc sub vs. wiz does seem kind of weak (much to the contrary of my first earlier post along this debate)
again if anything both these specials seem super good compared to +DC on one or two spell, like some other subs...
I'm having a hard time seeing where the bottom line for balancing for these 2 subs is in relation to other subs in general and other caster subs in particular, so other than trying to get sorc vs. wiz tight I don't have too many ideas
personally I think even 2x Great stat is really strong too, again compared to some others
I think levi as special for both would be good, or wb, after all quite some tasty caster endgame content is underwater, and levi is awesome from desert up to abyss, then again this doesn't fit the theme really for either, but I dunno, it's at least simple and pretty streamlined for balancing
maybe a simple solution could be to follow the +DC theme of some other caster subs, but it's hard to give a non-pigeonhole spell for mage unlike ploder or cler theurge
I mean it's easy to say certain schools-->spells are basically a "given" but at the same time that's too restrictive to me
I think 0-5 DC like KE originally mentioned is a lot more balanced than including 6s for the obvious instas
but that would favor wiz more than sorc...so not really equal if applied to both subs
I'm pretty sure I failed hard... started this whole thing off being wrong and now made it too complicated...zzz
what about sorc could get bonus ESK feat(s)?
I know pure sorc doesn't need em to pwn the server (cough sorc imba) but this could still be nice and usable to anyone?
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Post by pete on Apr 9, 2013 13:15:05 GMT
I would guess that extra spells known is out because then you would have to program some way of choosing which level of extra spells known to give, there is no singe level that all sorcerers take, it depends on the foci they choose (though they are usually between 6 and 9) and there are some who don't take this feat at all
also u know that the druid and ploder XRs also get 2 great wisdom feats? so sorc is the odd one out being the only one of the 4 main casters not to get these feats (I am not suggesting they be changed just pointing it out, armor skin is the only thing I would change on the current sorc XR)
also the current sorc XR only gets 2 ruins free (the feat and +1 uses), they have to take 50 ranks of spellcraft to get 3 uses
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 15:40:04 GMT
Armor Skin should be dropped, hopefully for something better like empower or great cha I I don't know anyone that tries to play an AC based sorc, they all use EV and accept the low AC You're assuming that the reason it's there is game balance. It isn't. It's a racial characteristic, and is not weighed very heavily with respect to game balance. Did you look up Kaorti before posting this? Unlikely, because it's smack-you-in-the-face obvious why they get it. As I posted earlier, game balance is only one of at least three major considerations in play. And while it is the most important, any argument based on the premise that any ability a subrace gets should be either 'typical' or maximally powerful for its chosen class is going to fall on deaf ears. Likewise, the fact that people dont try to play AC-based sorc doesn't mean the feat is useless, even though it's weighed less heavily. In fact, it means that those 2 points of AC will be at maximal usefulness when it comes to defense, unless your AC is so low that a 2 will hit you...also very unlikely, for most monsters. Obviously, you won't be trying to put that AC to the test on a regular basis, but it will be there should you need it. There already are some, and they're a favorite target of player complaints. Have you never seen an UR-Ward with its ASF randed down? About a third of them are, and players are very fond of referring to them as useless. Obviously, though, we'll be adding more items, with more benefits than the typical item, to give value to both this and the Armored Mage that Jaebrin gets. Someone actually confused this ability with Armored Mage, but it's far superior. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 15:44:18 GMT
I would guess that extra spells known is out because then you would have to program some way of choosing which level of extra spells known to give, there is no singe level that all sorcerers take, it depends on the foci they choose (though they are usually between 6 and 9) and there are some who don't take this feat at all No, it's out because, among other reasons, we simply can't add any more, even with engine hacks. Of course, we had this in mind when we orginally added what we did, because it's also a soft cap on the number of additional arcane spells we can introduce, due to wiz/sorc balancing. Funky
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Post by kaezar on Apr 9, 2013 16:37:33 GMT
Okay, didn't thought I had anything else to contribute to this thread, but here it goes. (Before we begin, love the new names, btw) But I disgress. I think the sheer size of the worksheet is muddling things up. Let's put the "pure" caster classes side by side to compare. Class | Name | Subrace Name | Str | Dex | Con | Wis | Int | Cha | Feats | Survival | Spcial | Sorc | Human | Kaorti | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 8 | Spell Pen, Gr. Spell Pen., Epic Spell Pen, Greater Ruin, Armor Skin | | 1 Extra use of GR/Day, -25% ASF | Wiz | Human | Illumian | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 8 | 0 | Great Int I & II, Empower, Extend | | +1 DC to Spells 1-6 | Caster Druid | Half-Elf | Verdant Prince | 0 | 2 | 2 | 8 | 0 | 0 | Great Wis I & II, SF/GSF Trans, SF Div, Dodge/Toughness | Treewalk | Env Penalties -2 if outdoor map. | Caster Cleric | Human | God Blooded | 0 | 2 | 0 | 8 | 2 | 0 | Great Wis I & II, Extend, SF: Evocation | Levitation | Implode dc +1 if G, +1dc to HB/ enervate if E, Rebuke +1 dc if N |
Easier to see now. All the abilities bonuses are equivalent. On feats, Wiz and Caster cleric get 4, 2 epic, 2 pre-epic. Sorc gets 5, the 1 extra being and epic feat. Armor Skin, though, is not really useful for the caster role, it is there more for flavor, so that's okay. Caster Druid Has 7 feats. 1 (dodge) is not very useful, another (toughness) is kind of useful, but does not benefit the role directly. Let's call those 2 one useful feat. That would make 6 feats. As the base race (half-elf) loses one feat, that would leave 5 feats, a bit above the other subbies. On survival, caster cleric has levitation, caster druid treewalk, whatever *that* is. For specials, that is hard to compare. All the abilities are good. I tend to think the 1 extra gr/day is a bit much, it is after all an increase of 50% of the number of usable Ruins/run, at minimum. It is not flavor-based, as well. Maybe something like 50% immunity to confusion like the critical immunity for juggernaut. More flavor-based. [Edit] Or +1 DC to confusion, mind fog, and other madness-flavored, mind-affecting spells, if we want to follow the trend of the other subbies. [/Edit] Take care Kaezar
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 16:56:53 GMT
I agree that the Ruin is the least based on 'flavor' or character of the build and race in question, but nothing better has presented itself. I don't really see the alternatives you mention having any more to do with the build or race, though, and they have the disadvantage of requiring more coding.
Treewalk is a more limited version of levitation, only useful in Rona, at least for now. Definitely mostly flavor on that.
+DC specials might be a good thing for wizards, but they would pidgeonhole sorc builds like spell foci have a tendency to do.
Funky
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Post by chirality on Apr 9, 2013 17:00:28 GMT
Have you never seen an UR-Ward with its ASF randed down? About a third of them are, and players are very fond of referring to them as useless. Yes...this tends to happen especially when AC and everything else got improved... I had considered the -ASF earlier as having a use due to randomization, both for making broken gear (more easily) usable and also combining well with added prop -ASF on gear--added together can be quite powerful situationally, especially if you factor in starting at 25% base, and I've seen up to -45% added in green in the past. I was also imagining possible future use such as -ASF pots or something like that (shrug, just an example). I understand a lot more now after your comments regarding the WM/staffy subs, and this last one, that many of these things are truly done for flavor (I was also wondering about Dodge/Toughness on druid--shrug).
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Post by KnightErrant on Apr 9, 2013 17:00:34 GMT
I don't know anyone that tries to play an AC based sorc, they all use EV and accept the low AC This is the current "play style" based on what works best in the mod as it is... What if say the resident mobs in the Elder Evils could see ethereal toons and attack them normally....might make AC much more useful and the current "play style" change ? IMHO "what works best atm" shouldn't necessarily dictate the properties/abilities of new subs and items. (Hope that made sense) .02 KE. Bah ! So sorry Pete...I accidently hit edit instead of quote.... so so sorry man ....can't seem to retrieve your old post, really sorry. Most sincere apologies. KE.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 17:10:18 GMT
Sorcs can already get 130 ac or so in gird, which is not so low to be useless. Armor skin boosting AC by +2 here certainly helps (though not as much as a caster feat, but if it's there to fit the flavor of the subby and is already an extra feat I'm fine with it staying there). But that's in asmo shield which doesn't have any usefulness for the -25% ASF special
What about giving them the feat "Extra Spell 6" instead of Greater Ruin (Funky posted "we can't add any more," but that's in addition to the Extra Spell Known feats I think?)
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 17:15:22 GMT
I understand a lot more now after your comments regarding the WM/staffy subs, and this last one, that many of these things are truly done for flavor (I was also wondering about Dodge/Toughness on druid--shrug). Dodge and Toughness are both Verdant Prince feats, yes - though they get 'improved' toughness from the Complete Warrior. Monster Manual 4 pp 172-173 if you're curious. Both are also incidentally useful as well, though not much a factor in balancing. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 9, 2013 17:22:04 GMT
What about giving them the feat "Extra Spell 6" instead of Greater Ruin (Funky posted "we can't add any more," but that's in addition to the Extra Spell Known feats I think?) They're a factor in what we're limited to, yes, if that's what you're asking. And sure, we MIGHT be able to add that to a sub, but it sure as heck isn't worth the struggle to find out. They require some acrobatics, and I'm not going to touch em (likely they would have to go in at the spells ped in LL, rather than at creation). I agree that an added 'known' spell would be a nice benefit, but not nearly nice enough to warrant the added trouble and dev time. Ruin is simple, as the code is already in place, as with most of the specials. Funky
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