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Post by eugene on May 3, 2013 1:24:02 GMT
I'm currently leveling a staffmaster, and it's a lot of fun. Right now I'm a 15th level wizard with the weapon focus that officially makes me a staffmaster, but the soonest I will get whirlwind attack will be level 18 so I can't start taking weapon master until 19. That's okay with me, I don't want to give up 9th level spells anyway.
After that I'll have to make a choice. Should I go all weaponmaster and never look back? The sheer amount of damage and the variety of damage types that would give me do look quite impressive.
On the other hand, what if I only took three levels of weaponmaster (just enough to have legendary fighter BAB) and the rest wizard? I'm going to get lots of abjuration foci either way, if I'm only three levels short of a pure wizard I could cast a mean disjunction spell, or even get the epic abjuration spell. I'd still have all the defensive perks of a staffmaster, plus the melee to-hit (if not nearly as much damage). It might not even be a complete waste of time to cast a few evocation spells.
What worries me is that all of the example staffmaster builds are 15 wizard / 45 weapon master, except for one rogue-splashed rapier-weilding gimmick build that is explicitly marked as obsolete. Am I missing some subtle reason that a staffmaster who tries to stay mostly wizard is horribly gimped? Or is the not-so-subtle lure of all that sweet, sweet damage from maxing out weapon master just that much more appealing?
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Post by arek on May 3, 2013 1:56:38 GMT
You want to be as close to 45 weapon master as you can get, because Staffmasters are melee dps characters. If for some reason your subrace prevents you from going 15/45, then 18/42 will have to do...but any subrace with at least one of the WM Prerequisites can get to WM at L15, tho having at least 2 such feats from your race is more reasonable.
Also, Weapon Masters get a to-hit bonus based on WM level, which winds up being +0 at level 3, and +7 at level 22, iirc. Quite a difference, eh?
--Arek
P.S. If you're using an open subrace and you aren't already using the blood of a certain dragon (ask in-game to find out which) that grants the Dodge feat, I'd look into either getting that blood and reincarnating to make use of it, or getting someone to help you get the Kurai secret subrace, in order to be able to make a 15wm/45wiz staffy. You won't miss the L9 spells, trust me (and, provided that you get enough int, which is easily possible with the int artifact, you can still extend spells into L9 spellslots from gear, even though you can't cast actual L9 spells with only 15 wizard levels).
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Post by chirality on May 3, 2013 2:23:38 GMT
What build are you using? I don't understand what is preventing you from doing 15/25, unless you are using a non-human. An open race sub with human base can start taking WM at 16. And there isn't much reason to use anything other than human unless you are using a secret+ subrace that restricts base race. If so, which are you utilizing? Have you taken some non-WM/Staffy feats early on? What base race/subrace are you using? I'd recommend taking a look at Maljin's great build here, which is perfect for a starter staffy and also includes plenty of useful information, tips, and hints. edit: To be clear I'm not telling you "your build sucks, ditch it and make this one instead", this is to give you a look at what is possible with an open sub. Malj goes into detail on build concept and reasoning, which could be helpful for you. Arek touches on it, but if you want my opinion I will go even more coarse and brutal and say yes, you will have a horribly-gimped build if you only have minimum WM levels. It is possible to do, for isntance, wiz 17 and get 9th level spells, but since you can use scrolls anyway and your offensive spells will suck, there really isn't much reason to do this. If you get 25 wiz levels (pre-LL) you can get epics but that leaves you with only 15 WM levels which translates into a pretty bit hit to tank effectiveness, just for some tactical options in the form of epic spells. 15 WM levels leaves you with a blackstaff of only fire, elec, cold, acid types, and only 6d10 dice. However epics can be nice. Shrug. I would definitely stay away from going more than 25 wiz levels. I can't say no one has ever done it, and maybe they liked it, but that's just my opinion.
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Post by Fade on May 3, 2013 2:44:28 GMT
Honestly, Staffmasters are melee.. I know it's alluring to dip into your toes into both ponds, but in the end it won't be worth it. An important thing to note, which Chirality mentions, is that damage types are based on Weaponmaster levels. It's one of Staffmaster's strengths and getting as much WM levels as possible is to your advantage.
Also, I'd say let go of 9th spells.. You're not an offensive caster. The only SM spell that's 9th level iirc is Black Blade of Disaster. Which can be used from a scroll if you really want it.
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Post by buddhamind on May 3, 2013 2:46:48 GMT
Better stick to the established 15/25 combination, IMO. That combination is popular for two reasons: It gives you more pre-epic BAB than 18/22, and it gives you the option to swap your blackstaff to positive and negative damage. In the end-game content, you will want as many damage options as possible.
A Wiz CC staffy is a bad idea. You would lose far more than you would gain. Epic spells are not worth such a large loss of AB and damage types. And to turn a staffmaster into an offensive spell caster is simply not viable. Your DC would be too low, and if you have WM levels your spell pen and casterlevel (for the offensive spells) would also be too low.
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Post by eugene on May 3, 2013 4:11:42 GMT
Oooh, I hadn't noticed the weapon master to-hit bonus, and if I could get Dodge from an item that means I could start taking WM at levels 16-20 for the crucial pre-epic BAB. I'll definitely keep that in mind if I ever reincarnate, and if I get a fancy sub-race that would just be icing on the cake.
Okay, I'm sold: I'm going 18/42. Well, possibly 19/41 so I can dump skill points into wizard skills at level 40, but only because weapon master level 42 isn't a crucial multiple of 5.
Of course level 41 also isn't a multiple of 5, but if I'm evenly split 20/20 at level 40 my control class will tip over to wizard, and that would be bad.
Since I can't trade WM 41 for another wizard level, is there another class that would be worth splashing for one level?
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Post by chirality on May 3, 2013 4:28:29 GMT
Again, what race are you using?
What benefit do you gain from dumping wiz skills at 40? What skills in particular are you thinking?
Monk can be a great option for splashing with WM. Usually people see this as a sacrifice of 1 level of CL and pos/neg damage in exchange for AC. It also allows a Tumble dump for 40 ranks at level 37 (or 38, 39, or 40). With a wiz CL item you can equip it to cast buffs at full CL, but you still lose neg/pos blackstaff (although you won't have this option anyway).
I don't want to sound too critical here but I would really recommend trying for 15/25. If you're still only level 15 then it's a good point to rebuild without sacrificing too much time (of course you may have been levelling slowly and already devoted a lot of time into the toon so maybe that isn't attractive). You could still use the wizard as a scriber toon, which means it's not a total loss.
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Post by eugene on May 3, 2013 5:29:49 GMT
The race is actually half-orc. Probably not the most perfectly optimal choice, but I like the look of the toon and the character concept. the most useful wiz skills I would think would be spell mastery, for saves against spells. I suppose there's also concentration, though I cast most of my buffs before combat so it's not a huge priority. I took bloodied as a starting feat to qualify for tumbling ranks at legendary levels, but I suppose a level of monk would free up a legendary feat. I'll think about that. I'm not ready to turn this guy into a scriber quite yet. There are a few things I'd do a bit differently next incarnation, but he's hardly unsalvagable.
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Post by chirality on May 3, 2013 5:45:01 GMT
Yup. I didn't mean to say he was.
Half-Orc gets Blooded for free.
Monk splash (or any Tumble dump) doesn't exactly replace LSA: Tumble. 40 ranks gives +8 AC while 60 ranks gives +12 AC, so there's still a 4-point difference. Most like taking LSA if they feel they need it; splash with Tumble dump is good but I just want to clarify that it's not quite even.
I'm assuming you mean Spellcraft, which I think you will probably have better use for the skillpoints elsewhere. Other than counterspelling (IDing spells) and to qualify for BioWare epics, Spellcraft isn't very useful. The save vs. spell is not worth the point investment considering the other skills you want to focus on. I'm assuming your Int isn't exactly stellar and you're probably better off putting as many points as possible into combat skills: Discipline, Parry, Listen, Craft Armor, Craft Weapon (and of course Tumble to as high a multiple of 5 as possible). It's not of as high priority as Disc, Parry, Listen, Tumble, but I'd probably take Concentration up to 30ish+ ranks if possible, before CA/CW, due to some mobs that force Conc checks. However you won't need to max it out by any means. If you do end up taking a wiz level at high 30s/40, that might be a good spot to dump Conc as a class skill.
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Post by Yojimbo on May 3, 2013 13:07:27 GMT
While generally speaking a CC Wiz SM is not a good idea I do think its more viable than some may indicate. This is not to say I suggest doing it in your case but just want to point it out. For skills he is a quick list of the skills you will want to invest in and why and ranked/
#1 Discipline: this will prevent some disarm checks and a few checks vs enemies which can destroy robes #2 Parry: this reduces damage taken from critical hits #3 Listen: this will improve your hit rate by reducing enemies concealment #4 Concentration: there are some enemies which force a check but you do not need a lot of points in it maxing it with Wizard 15 at level 15 should be sufficient but I wouldn't invest beyond 30 points #5 Craft Weapon: Your AB should be good as is but this will add more so it is worth while and maxing #6 Tumble: more AC but you will rely on conceal so AC isn't big also can effect KD checks #7 Craft Armor: small boost to AC #8 Spellcraft: boost to saves and small ability to counter spell but mostly a waste
I may have missed some but this is just a quick list off the top of my head
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Post by Vichya on May 3, 2013 13:24:17 GMT
#6 Tumble: more AC but you will rely on conceal so AC isn't big also can effect KD checks Relying on concealment doesn't work. You might think 90% is good, but it isn't nearly enough on its own if you want to tank. A staffmaster with 90% concealment has an actual concealment of 81% against opponents with blind fight. Getting hit about 20% of the time means you need incredibly good gear.
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Post by Yojimbo on May 3, 2013 13:33:05 GMT
Sorry also tend to rely on soak from premonition and invest in LSF Divination for that 20%. With out a shield what is the average SM AC? shielded ones seem to only get up to mid 120s which isn't really enough with out the soak and/or immunities you tend to get from heavy armor.
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Post by Vichya on May 3, 2013 13:38:02 GMT
You can get mid-high 120s with a staffmaster (no monk splash, no shield). My staffmaster has 127 AC.
Just to clarify what I'm talking about. You can survive with just concealment, but if you really want to tank well (i.e. multiple pit fiends, malebranche, ichors all at the same time) then you have to have some AC.
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Post by eugene on May 3, 2013 13:42:12 GMT
I hadn't considered mobs that force concentration checks, I guess that's the point of asking experienced players.
I'll have a bit more skill points to play with than staffmasters who give up 9th level spells, but I suppose I'll still have to be more stingy than a classic wizard. But with that in mind, are craft armor and weapon worth it when they give only one point of bonus per 40 points of skill?
Ooops, I should get going to work
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Post by buddhamind on May 3, 2013 14:25:59 GMT
I haven't crunched the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if AC in the 120s (without a shield) would not be feasible for an open subrace, especially at 0x demi. I'm pretty sure you would need lots of Dex, and PSF Abj, to see numbers that high.
Has anyone ever tried a monk splash on a staffmaster?
Craft Armor and Craft Weapon are useful if you have the points, each giving up to +3 to AC or AB, respectively. But I would rank them below Tumble, Discipline, Listen, Parry, and Concentration. If you have 10 or 20 points left over, you can put it into CrA or CrW and get +1 with just bard song. However with >19 Int you should have no trouble maxing six or seven skills.
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