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Post by Torin on May 3, 2013 14:45:01 GMT
Has anyone ever tried a monk splash on a staffmaster? Sure. You can go Wisbased: See hereOr STR-Uni: see here
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Post by Yojimbo on May 3, 2013 14:53:02 GMT
Yes buddha kinda hit what I was going to say Vichya. Part of why I said average AC becuase I am sure BUR sub multi demi with artifacts and very good item randomization gear and get set items should be able to hit those numbers.
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Post by Vichya on May 3, 2013 14:55:27 GMT
Actually staffy AC almost only depends on dexterity, and whether you're a demi or not. If you are your AC can be 108 + craft armor + dex modifier.
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Post by buddhamind on May 3, 2013 16:19:00 GMT
I agree with Vichya on that point but the question, as I see it, is whether or not an open subrace can get enough dexterity to hit >120 AC even with Demi iterations, PLs, and PSF Abj.
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Post by eugene on May 3, 2013 17:52:55 GMT
okay, so far it sounds like my priorities are:
discipline (wm). No obvious cap, is more always better?
60 tumble, which is worth 480 craft armor.
120 parry (legendary wm), to reduce criticals.
120 listen (wm), which is superior to blind fighting feat.
30 concentration (wiz), for mob checks.
25 spellcraft (wiz), for +5 RR vs spells. yes it's marginal, but so is craft weapon.
10 in spot (wm), just because I'm so tired of pickpocket mobs. Do they get worse at higher levels?
any exess I'd put in craft weapon, rather than craft armor.
Oh, I just remembered taking a splash of monk would give me an XP penalty, so I'm sticking with the original plan of taking legendary tumble affinity.
What I can splash without XP penalty is barbarian. Come to think of it, it might be worth taking barbarian from level 17-18 just for the pre-epic BAB. I'd lose one 9th level spell slot which everyone keeps saying I don't need, and two caster levels which I'd never be using offensively anyway. I suppose it will make my buffs a little easier to dispel, but as I understand it the only way to be really dispel-proof in the end game is with a special item (boots of something?).
I'd also gain barbarian movement, uncanny reflexes, and a slightly better fortitude save. Does this server still cap the maximum speed of non-monks to never be faster than haste?
Oh, AND I'd get a few more skill points, and I could buy some parry before legendary levels. I'm liking this idea more and more.
Also, I just remembered what race I wanted to reincarnate into: half-orc, half-fiend. The half-fiend int bonus more than negates the half-orc int penalty, which is icing on the cake next to the spell resistance that improves with level and quicksand walking.
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Post by KnightErrant on May 3, 2013 18:12:51 GMT
25 spellcraft (wiz), for +5 RR vs spells. yes it's marginal, but so is craft weapon. Spellcraft save bonus falls in the +20 Saves cap....if you have +20 universal saves from gear --not to hard to do with level 40+ gear-- it nets you nothing... +1 or +2 AB from Craft Weapon falls outside the +20 AB cap bonus... KE.
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Post by chirality on May 3, 2013 18:20:26 GMT
Craft Weapon and Armor may seem like a long gamble with only +1/40 ranks. However keep in mind that after gear bonuses + bardsong you'll get a big boost. Remember that these AC/AB bonuses respect total skill MOD rather than only RANK like Tumble, so it's alot easier to get a +1 or even +2 (I'd say +3 is definitely out of your reach). If you really want Spellcraft then that's your choice. I was just trying to say that it's by far the least-useful skill to you. But, just like everything else that's been mentioned in this thread, there really is no substitute for your own experience allowing you to inform your own decisions. You will come to your own conclusions on your build, and nothing can replace your own playing as a teacher. Good luck I don't see you as really having tons of extraneous skill points so I'd recommend staying away from Spot as well. Again, just my opinion.
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Post by eugene on May 3, 2013 18:33:29 GMT
If it's that easy to get +20 universal saves from equipment at higher levels, I'll definitely drop spellcraft completely if/when I reincarnate.
Speaking of which, what level does that become an option?
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Post by chirality on May 3, 2013 18:36:02 GMT
Has anyone ever tried a monk splash on a staffmaster? Sure. You can go Wisbased: See hereOr STR-Uni: see hereRight, I should have given Torin a shoutout when I mentioned it. Awesome build idea. Buddha, I'd really recommend anyone trying it, if for nothing else than to try something new. There are obvious losses vs. pure staffy, but after CL ego it's not much more than pos/neg blackstaff (indeed hard to miss depending on preference + where you're playing). It's a very cool idea and even without the best gear options you still gain some worthwhile defense--higher AC at 120s-30s range really goes a long way in the crit department (harder for mobs to confirm crits in particular, as well as obvious more hit evasion period). It is a lot less attractive without CL ego, but it's still an interesting option. With CL ego it's great as you only need to swap it on/off to buff. This isn't even very difficult in mid-combat if you die or if your buffs die.
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Post by simpetar on May 3, 2013 19:16:00 GMT
You should be able to get full +20 save bonus in high 20s - low 30s, depending on gear. Note that it *is* possible to get saves up to +25 bonus on HG, but it is rather unusual. Staffies tend to have issues with saves, it is usually fixed by lots of feats spent in that department, which is one reason why everybody recommends you to follow a proven and tested build from these boards EDIT: as for Spellcraft: leave that one to real casters. It benefits you only little, the "vs. spells" save bonus counts towards +20 cap. There are far better skills for you, such as Discipline, Tumble (taken in Legendary Levels after Legendary Skill Affinity), Listen, Parry, Craft Armor and Craft Weapon (WM class skill in Legendary Levels). The only skill you should take that wizard has and WM does not, is Concentration. Roughly 20 ranks in Concentration will help you against some rare, but annoying checks you may encounter as soon as in low legendary areas.
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Post by eugene on May 4, 2013 3:57:54 GMT
On second thought, splashing anything that reduces my staffmaster CL doesn't just make my buffs easier to dispel, it also makes them weaker buffs. Tenser's Transformation alone would drop 1 AB, 1 AC, and some temp hit points. The only way that would be worth it is if having less pre-epic BAB than a standard staffmaster build would lose me an entire attack per round, and on further analysis, it won't.
15 Wizard / 5 WM at level 20 = +12/+7/+2 18 Wizard / 2 WM at level 20 = +11/+6/+1
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Post by chirality on May 4, 2013 4:18:19 GMT
Honestly, the bottom line with monk splash is the pos/neg blackstaff, 1 dice, and losing -1 CL on tensers, EV, and premo (primary buffs that take a hit from CL 60-->59; there are others obviously but these are the main). Only way around the CL issue is a CL ego (or I suppose in theory baelnorn following you around with emp ally? ), and there is no way around the blackstaff hit, although depending where you play mainly you might not miss it all that much. The problem with taking more wiz levels pre-20 (as you indicate) is less BAB. Although retaining 3 attacks is good, losing AB at all is not so good. However it won't be a dealbreaker. There really isn't much to say if you're doing 18 wiz levels; it is what it is. Monk splash doesn't really make much sense with that, but I was just throwing it out there since you asked for splash options. Really it works best with a CL ego. It's still ok without one (definitely produces solid toons even with CL 59 blackstaff/EV/tenser) but even then you're better off following a base format as Torin suggests in his builds which he linked earlier.
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Post by eugene on May 4, 2013 6:18:04 GMT
I could see one level of monk splash working on a human, preferably with a high wisdom score. However, with my half-orc the only splash class I can easily take without XP problems is barbarian. It's a full BAB class that I was thinking about boosting my pre-epic BAB with by one point... until I realized that lowering the caster level would give me -1 AB from Tenser's Transformation, just for starters.
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Post by eugene on May 4, 2013 6:28:03 GMT
In any case, the original question I've asked has been answered, and I'm definitely going 18/42 rather than 57/3. 15/45 isn't an option this incarnation, if I really find that 9th level spells aren't that important I might aim for 15/45 next incarnation. Thanks for all the input, everyone!
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Post by olir on Nov 4, 2013 15:34:52 GMT
I haven't crunched the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if AC in the 120s (without a shield) would not be feasible for an open subrace, especially at 0x demi. I'm pretty sure you would need lots of Dex, and PSF Abj, to see numbers that high. Are shield staffmasters feasible?
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