Deleted: How to build a caster on HG. A beginner´s guide.

[Paradoom]

added the tumble thingy, thx for the hint.

[Mudeye]

I have a couple of Sorcerer related comments. For Sorcerers, dexterity is a pretty useless stat and not an "off stat". Most casters don't worry about saves because spells, items and play style handles the issue. If you still want to raise your saves take a level of paladin (but be aware of the penalty of doing this). Without a Paladin level your saves will be terrible. Putting points in dexterity isn't going to get them high enough to pass checks. With a level of Paladin, putting points into Dex or Wisdom isn't necessary. You'll have about the highest saves in the party even with a base dex of 8.

For a Sorcerer build people probably should probably follow this kind of order and priority:
A) Max Charisma
B) Determine which skills you really need. Concentration for sure, Lore Probably, Spellcraft if you want epic feats, everything else is probably only for special cases. Put only the amount into Int necessary for that.
C) Max Concentration to the highest possible even number.
D) Any thing left can go into Int for some additional optional skills (again even number).
E) If this leaves anything you can put them wherever you want. They won't make much difference though.

The only thing that Dex is usually going to boost is a slight increase for ranged touch attacks. There are a few spells that use these. You aren't going to get a big boost here, though, no matter how many points you put into dex.

[Mudeye]

I have another short rant here.

For optional skills there are a few that people, particularly newbies are unaware of. Several skills are modified on HG to buff you or debuff your enemies in ways that are useful for casters. Some of this is already in the post.

Listen: Increases chance of hitting concealed enemies. Useful for single target spells.

Lore: Boosts spell damage of many spells.

Parry: Reduces your critical damage received, but requires a lot of skill points (30 cross class points only gives a 5% reduction).

Persuade: Reduces enemy spell resistance (up to 6) making them easier to hit with spells.

Discipline: Helps with some checks. (30 cross class points isn't going to benefit you a lot though). This is critical for Melee types wearing armor, but not so much for casters. Many (most) don't worry a lot about discipline).

Tumble: Each 5 ranks (not score) increases AC by 1. Generally casters avoid physical damage rather than try to block it with AC though.

Spellcraft: If you take Greater Ruin you want Spellcraft to 50. Otherwise only as high as the requirement for the epic feat spells you want. Not needed if you don't take epic feat spells.

[tank]

putting points into dexterity isn't necessarily for reflex save, it's for dexterity ability checks, which there are quite a few.

[Mudeye]

One final note on spell schools.

First, the spell Ghostly Visage is highly modified on Higher Ground. Any arcane caster needs to know about this. Ghostly Visage gives a short period of etherealness. The enemies can't detect you at all. They will not target you and will stop following you if you cast this. Spell focus feats in illusion increase the duration. It is probably the single best panic button spell that arcane casters have. Most arcane builds take spell focus feats in illusion in order to get this protection. There are a few illusion damage spells that get boosted too which is icing on the cake.

Second, you tell people to take Evocation and Conjuration. From a Sorcerer perspective, most of the builds posted here would take Evocation or Conjuration and not both. Sorcerers don't get to learn 100 spells. They get only a small selection. Newbies only get three schools to specialize in anyway. Conjuration and Evocation have a high degree of overlap. They both provide a lot of elemental damage spells of the same damage types. Evocation is primarily area damage spells, while Conjuration is usually single target but a bit more damage to the target. You'll usually get more for your feats and spell selection if you take one or the other and then take a completely different spell school like Transmutation or Necromancy that emphasizes non-elemental damage.

Cloud spells are a lot less dependent on focus feats because they have a chance to hit every round. Even without focus feats these can do massive damage in a long group fight. Both Conjuration and Evocation have some.

[Mudeye]

Sept 8, 2013 16:43:08 GMT tank said:

putting points into dexterity isn't necessarily for reflex save, it's for dexterity ability checks, which there are quite a few.

Raising an ability from 8 to 14 give you +3 in an ability bonus. There are also strength checks, Fortitude checks, Concentration checks. There are also numerous skill checks. If +3 is critical to dex then it is critical to the others also. I don't see dex+3 as the make it or break it check on Higher Ground.

In the end you still have a low dexterity score compared to many others. Constitution, in particular, will raise concentration checks (critical for casters), Fortitude checks and hit points.

[arek]

Believe me or not as you will, Mudeye, but Erinyes Domination (a fairly low-level dex check) is very common in Hell, and will take your sorc out of action longer and more reliably than any str or con check will. "Well stay away from erinyes" you say? They're not always easy to see, and their range is actually fairly long. Not to mention that it's not always possible to do. Opening with thunderclaps helps, but may not be fast enough if one is on you at the start of the fight. Thus, if you have to pick just one of the STR/DEX/CON to raise to +14ish, DEX is probably the best choice.

--Arek

[Paradoom]

Well the dex is pretty much what arek said and realy something you need. Getting controled everytime one of those annoying erinyes spawn near you aint real fun and many casters can sing a song of that one.

Listen does not help your caster in any way with getting orbs through enemies conceal, it only applies to tanks and touch attacks. And as a sorc I do not want to do touch attacks, that´s for sure.

I have no clue why you mentioned lore? It´s exactly what I posted and of course you buff that one up, with the exception that you go for pure instant killing.

Tumble is not so much about the ac, except for wizards, (and also clerics and druids), who can push it to the maximum as elf and are in general better suited to gain some tanking abilities. It is more for defence purpuses when u reposition yourself, so you dont get instant killed by opportunity hits, because you kardwheel out of there.

Persuade is indeed a very helpful ability and it is the bards job to do that. If I go on an wiz or even sorc and use persuade and then even draw the aggro of the mob on me, something goes realy bad. And since bards are quite special I gave them some extra notice. But ill check if I put some more of that in there.

Spells will realy blow the the scope of this guide and also play tactics.

Discipline is not important you say, but you cling to using a paladin splash for saves and propably a shield and such. That´s quite contradictionary, since you dont want to get slacked by even normal ichiors and such (not talking about the elite ones).

Conjuration and Evocation have similar damage types, but quite different spells. Conjuration produces good high single target damage, without the danger of breaking loot. It also provides the best damagecloud aoe buff you can get. If you want to have a summon, then conjuration helps there as well to buff it a bit (though that is secondary). Evocation on the other hand has some handy stuff agains undeads and does alot of aoe damage. It also has several elemental area damage type spells, that effect a whole spawn, which aint covered from conjuration even closely. In combination you have top damage abilities single and area wide, depending on what you need. And don´t understimate the difference between clouds with and without conjuration focus.

What one personally wants to combine and prefers differes from person to person. The suggestions that I have in here tend to work pretty well together, but of course you can combine it differently and use other spells. It doesn´t mean yours or mine is better. It´s just what works good as a base. When you are familiar enough with what you wanna play and how, of course you will use others to optimize it for your own benefit and the party.

[Deleted]

Sept 8, 2013 16:31:13 GMT Mudeye said:

I have a couple of Sorcerer related comments. For Sorcerers, dexterity is a pretty useless stat and not an "off stat". Most casters don't worry about saves because spells, items and play style handles the issue. If you still want to raise your saves take a level of paladin (but be aware of the penalty of doing this). Without a Paladin level your saves will be terrible. Putting points in dexterity isn't going to get them high enough to pass checks. With a level of Paladin, putting points into Dex or Wisdom isn't necessary. You'll have about the highest saves in the party even with a base dex of 8.

For a Sorcerer build people probably should probably follow this kind of order and priority:
A) Max Charisma
B) Determine which skills you really need. Concentration for sure, Lore Probably, Spellcraft if you want epic feats, everything else is probably only for special cases. Put only the amount into Int necessary for that.
C) Max Concentration to the highest possible even number.
D) Any thing left can go into Int for some additional optional skills (again even number).
E) If this leaves anything you can put them wherever you want. They won't make much difference though.

The only thing that Dex is usually going to boost is a slight increase for ranged touch attacks. There are a few spells that use these. You aren't going to get a big boost here, though, no matter how many points you put into dex.

No. Not starting with 14 dexterity on any caster except a turner is a big mistake. First, AC is highly important; second, have fun getting dominated by erinyes. I welcome you to try to soak up all damage instead of avoiding it with AC on a sorc, cleric, bard, or druid. Sorc gets some leeway as they can stay in the back but if you want everything in a spawn to be Prayered/in BT/Green/BC'd/cursed/Bard epics positioned well, AC isn't really optional.

Raising an ability from 8 to 14 give you +3 in an ability bonus. There are also strength checks, Fortitude checks, Concentration checks. There are also numerous skill checks. If +3 is critical to dex then it is critical to the others also. I don't see dex+3 as the make it or break it check on Higher Ground.

In the end you still have a low dexterity score compared to many others. Constitution, in particular, will raise concentration checks (critical for casters), Fortitude checks and hit points.

Ability checks go by base score not by modifier, so it's actually a +6 boost to a d20 roll. If that isn't large, I don't know what is. It's the difference between going from a 30% chance of getting dominated or knocked down every round to 0%.

[Paradoom]

A minor update on some descriptions and corrections and I added some hints for the actual process of building a toon.

[Paradoom]

Encountering endless fail builds again and again and again till this day, I anticipating there is a need of some basic help for building basics. So I put in alot of my personal building experience and time creating something for beginners to get a basic idea what matters, without narrowing down the building variety. A huge thank you to arek, aubricker, audifreak, buddhamind, bad, lee, laser and torin, and whoever I have forgotten to mention for the help and input they gave me.

Some personal remarks on why I deleted it:
Compared to other guids of similar depth and value, it clearly got a third class treating. (e.g. others got imidiatly sticky or added to the wiki even) The reactions to it had very little criticism and the personal responses I got were of no value to improve or change nor help in anyway (with the exception of those who actually helped me developing and correcting it). Perhaps it showed too many people the many real trash builds and mistakes they made in the forums or I don´t know.
There also seemed to be some artificialy made up language issues with them. I wrote in a clear and clean language and made straight statements. This, in my experience, is exactly what a beginner needs, so she/he has a save base line to fall back to without having to worry about uncertainties, maybies and coulds, but clear rely on solid facts. This deliberately was misinterpreted to: Paradoom wants his opinion to be the verdict and nothing else. Let me say this: you cannot be more wrong. Just because I do not mention something, does NOT exclude other possibilities nor does it make my statement the only option, but one that I am certain about to work well. By all means feel free to do things differently, and have fun finding something else that works great. For starters this aint feasable though and that´s what most people seem to keep forgetting.

Have a nice day.

Paradoom

[amano666]

I thought both guides were good, seems a shame to delete them.

I understand if you are putting them "on hold" but you have added a good resource and then taken it away because you didn't get a sticky?

I thought that there was good advice in there, you set minimums which were realistic for end game play, you gave solid advice about which feats were effective, and most important I agree that you kept it open enough that if someone wanted to build something different they could but at least know what they would be trading away.

If you want to add something to the wiki you just ask permission to edit the wiki (I bet they will give it to you) and then you go in there and add it. I get the desire for praise and acknowledgement, but respectfully you should let your contributions speak for themselves rather than removing them because you didn't think they were appreciated enough. I liked them and would have liked to refer to them when building something new.

[Paradoom]

Nice to see that there were at least two (you and torin), who actually liked it. Everyone likes his work to be appriciated and I am not different of course. But that was hardly THE reason to go that far. I will not say more to this.

If I will repost them, I cannot say, but right now I am not realy considering it.


For those who need more information on building:
Under highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/20616/general-building-guidelines you find something that seems to be much better and covering the whole thing alot more accurate and detailed. (sarcasm warning!).