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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 17:03:50 GMT
Arcane Theurge - Stargazer Ver 1.xlsx (633.52 KB) The Build. This was originally thought of to solo Oinos with effectively and safely in -HC- play. With summons (Greater Planar Binding) and buffs, such as Barkskin, Mage Armour, Magic Vestments, UEF etc... your summons will be able to tank the mobs while your cast offensive spells like orbs and evards. Its also able to help alot in parties using clouds and elemental spells (Greater Thunderclap, Delayed Blast Fireball, Freezing Sphere). Transmutation for disintegrate helps alot on trash mobs and machines and the Epic wall is very useful for harder, bigger groups and bosses. Could possibly take a rogue level at 40, dump tumble and get open lock, spot etc.. and be able to open all chests with the right gear equipped. 26 Wizard/ 14 Cleric Level Progression: 9 Wizard, 13 Cleric, 17 Wizard, 1 Cleric Base Race - Elf, Subrace Stargazer. Stargazer" (secret UltraRare subrace) - requires Elf FC: Cleric, Wizard INT +4 WIS +4 CHA -2 (I've made multiple Stargazer Characters and never have been given -2 to Cha.) Free Feat: Spell Focus - Divination, Defensive Roll Starting Stat Points: [Creation], (Racial Edits), {60 Naked}, –w/ +14-, “x2Demi+Arti Str [8] (8) {8} -22- “26” Dex [12] (12) {12} -26- “30” Con [12] (12) {12} -26- “30” Wis [14] (18) {18} -32- “36” Int [18] (22) {52} -66- “72” Cha [8] (8) {8} -22- “26” Levels: 1-9 Wizard: Feats: In any order.
Spell Focus Conjuration
Greater Spell Focus Conjuration
Spell Focus Evocation
Greater Spell Focus Evocation
Greater Spell Focus Divination 10-22 Cleric: I decided to go for the domains, Plant & War, this enables you to cast Aura of Vitality and Barkskin on your summons making them a lot tougher.Feats: In any order.
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Empower or Extend Spell (You will have both at some point in LL)
Epic Spell Penetration 23-39 Wizard: Feats: In any order.
Epic Spell Focus Conjuration
Epic Spell Focus Evocation
Epic Spell Focus Divination
Great Intelligence 1-8 40 Cleric: Feats: No feats for this level.
41-60 Wizard: I USED THE TRANSMUTATION BOOK.
Feats: In any order, although Legendary Spell Penetration is a must have for me if playing while leveling it. Legendary Spell Penetration Legendary Spell Focus Conjuration Legendary Spell Focus Evocation Legendary Spell Focus Transmutation Great Intelligence 9-10 Empower or Extend Spell (Depends on what one you chose first) Skill Point Allocation: By the time your in LL, you will have many points to spare. The ones to put it into first are; *Concentration; 63 *Lore; 63 *Parry; 63 – take this on Cleric Levels to save points Heal; 63 – this is optional, but it’s a nice bonus to healing circle spell Discipline; - As many points as you can take cross class Tumble; - Again, as many points cross class as you can, ends up +6 AC Craft Armour; - Full 63 points for a bit of AC and also I like to craft my armour Spellcraft; - If your good enough to counterspell as I don’t take ruin on this character. The rest of the spare points can go into whatever you want. Spell Foci & Epics: Evocation: Gives you a huge range of elemental damaging spells, the Epic is Missile Barrage which isn’t great but its mainly for the spells and leads up to the great Paragon Spell Karsus!. Conjuration: Gives a lot of elemental single target damage with the orb series, a good range of clouds (including evards black tentacles). Also makes your summons slightly better and gives you a better chance to summon the best ones (Pit Fiend, Alkilith, Malebranche). The Marilith is also nice as it breaches on hit once its weapon has been buffed. On top of this it gives you the Epic Bigby which is rather nice for Raks and just immobilizing groups at a time. Divination: Only really because stargazer gives you the starting feat and the epic Contingency (averts you from death, rebuffing you with all the spells in your autocaster… remember to stick GS in there somewhere). Also the level 9 spell Power Word Kill is effective in Thids. Transmutation: I mainly took this for the Epic Wall, very useful in boss fights and sticky situations. Gives some nice spells also like Disintegrate, Combust and a few others. Based off of HoV’s Theurge build and inspiration from keithsan VanRyken, SmilingCrow and Gladi8or, Chainlink also criticized my previous build and gave some suggestions.
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Post by chirality on Oct 22, 2013 20:27:02 GMT
You don't mention either base race or subrace except 1 reference later in school notes about stargazer; from +4 Int/Wis in stats it seemed obvious gazer was the sub used, however you skipped mentioning -2 Cha from gazer and +2 Dex/-2 Con from elf; and of course Defensive Roll (not that it's meaningful in any way for such build). Not that any of that is important but!
Combust has no save, so having Trans foci doesn't improve it in any way.
You note that Parry should be taken on cleric levels but might be useful to emphasize the desirability of dumping as much Parry as possible at level 40 (cleric) since 23-39 was straight wizard and after LLs it would be Able Learner extra point usage to max.
The note on summons: Marilith is in the same "top" or "best ones" tier as PF and Male; allkilith is the "special" 1% (? I think base 1%; sure seems to have boosted % chance when sorc uses channel; have seen pure sorc channeling get one ridiculously often; I think this calc of whether or not it appears is based on CL somehow) chance one which opposes Planetar for good-aligned summoners.
Who is "HoV" and what is this theurge build you refer to?
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Post by Yojimbo on Oct 22, 2013 21:56:03 GMT
If you look down the list HoV is a user and posted a Moon Elf Theurge oddly enough based on my Svirfneblin Theurge which kinda tickles me getting zero credit listed if its based of a build based of my build . I would say the mention of Combust is that it is a Transmutation spell not that having the Foci specifically matters for it though it might boost the AB of the touch attack I'm not sure on that. I think for the summons the 1% summon is based on a calculation for summoning power which uses CL and Focus it might even go up from 1% if you have high enough CL and Focus.
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Post by chirality on Oct 22, 2013 22:14:08 GMT
Oh yeah...that guy... Well it's easy enough to check the documentation if you're unsure of spell details (rather than saying "maybe it does this"). Like I said it gets no bonus from Trans foci. Regardless it's still a great spell; I just wanted to clear up potential "build said trans for combust but it's not making DC any better" type thing. As far as I have ever been able to tell, chance of getting alki/planetar doesn't improve from foci; 6 conj rank CL 60 caster did not have any noticeable improvement in getting it vs. 0/1/2/3 conj rank CL 60 caster; however as I said I noticed a drastic boost in chance of it being summoned when watching CL 60 sorc cast it with channel (he got it more frequently with 1/2 the conj ranks i had), enough so that it didn't seem to be weird luck (i.e. we both spammed it 50x per rest for hour or 2 straight to test while doing hive runs and laughing at double alkilith pwnage) Anyway, the basic rules for summoning calculations are already well-established and relatively well-known (or at any rate easy to find out) so I didn't mean to start that discussion; point was only that PF/Male/Mari = "top 3" at max summoning mod, and alkilith is a special case, rather than pf/male/alkilith and marilith on the side.
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Post by Yojimbo on Oct 22, 2013 23:28:28 GMT
I looked at documentation it says it now just is a touch attack but doesn't say if the touch attack AB is impacted by foci to my knowledge none of the touch attacks are though. The summon math was posted once I was working from memory but we could dig up the post I guess if we care.
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Post by Torin on Oct 23, 2013 5:48:38 GMT
For Summons: wiki.hgweb.org/wiki/Summons Alkilith has a 5% chance to be summoned if the summons are from the top tier chance (PF/Male/Mari/Balor) if (!Random(20)) { sumnfo.res = "aby_alkilith"; sumnfo.env = 9; } else { switch (Random(4)) { case 0: sumnfo.res = "h_malebranche"; sumnfo.env = 10; break; case 1: sumnfo.res = "h_pitfiend"; sumnfo.env = 10; break; case 2: sumnfo.res = "aby_balor"; sumnfo.env = 10; break; case 3: sumnfo.res = "aby_marilith"; sumnfo.env = 8; break; } }
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Post by chirality on Oct 23, 2013 6:12:51 GMT
Ah, that's right--I forgot you had added that to the wiki (and never said thanks/props)--nice work (also overall thanks for wiki management as always)
Any idea where the post from either Were or Funky is which shows the full chart of modifiers for each spell (the +/- mod dependent on which spell is cast)? I have tried to find it a few times in the last several months, to no avail (probably due to browser which seems unable to use the forum search without encountering proboard error page).
Anyway, neither I nor kral could find any numbers which would confirm or deny my "possible notice" of channel or anything else improving chance for alkilith. It could have just been a fluke but KC was repeatedly (and over a long period of a few hundred casts, in one run as an example) getting alkiliths with far more frequency than my old wiz. Again though I can't emphasize enough that this clearly is too small of a (data) set for anything meaningful to be gained from it, and could have just been weird RNG being its usual lame self, or just weird luck.
I was very disappointed to discover that after the "cap" is reached, the summons don't improve any more, nor did high conj ranks have any noticeable effect on getting the alkilith. Nor did it even improve the alkilith; as far as I could ever tell the alkilith only shifted stats based on die roll (iirc about 3 diff ones I have seen, 33/34/35 hp)
Well, the alkilith is too infrequent to summon for it to be a true balance concern, and it lacks levi which severely limits its usefulness, but that said, the acid inflict is pretty broken. At this point though I wouldn't even bother asking for a nerf, but really it's pretty lame that it's so damn good and the planetar is so bad (and also evidently 5x less chance to get it for whatever reason), which lines up perfectly with how overall OP the evil summons are vs. the overall really lame good ones. In that vein, at pre-LLs the (good) lantern archon is super strong, complete with onhit mord/breach which rapes and the SR debuff helps a lot in drow and AKs. Other than that though, even some extensive attempts to get mileage out of other good summons failed spectacularly; one other exception being the KD deva, but it's general complete lack of tankiness and DPS vs. the evil summons makes it more of a curiosity than anything worth using. Pursuing some sort of balance amongst the summons/alignments would be a good low priority todo for long in the future (in line with attempts to balance out alignments for clerics etc--atm for summoners much like for ploders, going evil just pays so so so so much more).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 16:56:14 GMT
If you look down the list HoV is a user and posted a Moon Elf Theurge oddly enough based on my Svirfneblin Theurge which kinda tickles me getting zero credit listed if its based of a build based of my build . I would say the mention of Combust is that it is a Transmutation spell not that having the Foci specifically matters for it though it might boost the AB of the touch attack I'm not sure on that. I think for the summons the 1% summon is based on a calculation for summoning power which uses CL and Focus it might even go up from 1% if you have high enough CL and Focus. Credit to Yojimbo.. Sorry about that:D obviously i didnt notice that. And i made this in like 15 minutes just before i went to bed so i was sure i was going to do something wrong in it;D
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 17:08:50 GMT
Also with the summons, i dont usually think Mariliths are that good because they die very easily unless buffed alot. And im used to using a sorcerer which cant give it many buffs so i rather just use PF's etc... And i was not sure about the how the tier of the summons work but i've used multiple casters and ones with Conjuration seem to be more effective at summoning the best ones more frequently. Im not sure how it works because i get alkiliths every few summons with my sorc, im pure with an ego if that helps?.
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Post by chirality on Oct 23, 2013 18:32:17 GMT
Just to be clear I totally derailed about 5 posts back and we stopped talking about your build.
I'd like to hear more about your alkilith chances though, because that seems to at least backup my observation as well, and it kinda sucks since channel already makes summons better, and if you get more alkiliths too along with being a superpowered class that casts superpowered spells without trying, that's lame.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 20:10:15 GMT
Im not sure about it, i guess its just luck
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2013 20:11:18 GMT
And how do you suggest sorcerers are Overpowered?.
Oops, my brain is gone today.
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Post by tank on Oct 23, 2013 20:16:21 GMT
he said superpowered!
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Post by Yojimbo on Nov 19, 2013 14:47:18 GMT
One thought/question often Illusion is considered a major, almost must have, school for Arcane due to 85% vs 80% conceal so how does your build fair defensively w/o that bonus? What gear do you intend/recommend for L60+ player and what would your Paragon feat progression be? I personally don't see Evocation foci that great on a Wizard or Arcane Theurge when the reason is for the Karsus Paragon because all you need then is Polymathy which you can get with 0 Evocation foci taken. Mostly I am thinking I would go for LSF Divination, better Premonition and PWK, over LSF Evocation since you can get your Karsus and most Evocation spells are at least 50% power when they make the DC check while PWK is either ineffective or very effective and the bump in soak power of Premo can mean a lot too.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2013 13:43:35 GMT
Well... i've been playing a Yuan-Ti sorcerer in Oinos and Hells alot recently, since i cant get my hands on a Radiance Genasi in -HC- very easily and i dont want to bother leveling another sorcerer up to just make another once i get the race and its been doing pretty well. Originally designed as an Oinos farming character i decided to go with Evo, Conj, Necro and Div - which is unlike most sorcerers that do the Trans, Ill, Necro, Evo. So far its been easy to play without Illusion focus, and in my point of view as a caster you shouldnt really need the conceal as you're not meant to be tanking things anyway. One advantage i see of the extra conceal is to stop annoying Spinagons from hitting you but they get killed by Zen etc... If you really think the Illusion is that good then feel free to drop a school.
Evocation is a must have for me, the fact that there is such a range of powerful AoE Evo spells like Freezing Sphere, DBF, Greater Thunderclap etc... just makes it a silly choice not to invest in. I believe it may also improve the effectiveness of some clouds. To top it off i was making this as a "damage theurge" and not a Insta-Killer meaning that not taking Evo for the huge range of elemental spells would just be silly. Divination is an ok choice, Contingency being a nice added bonus. PWK indeed is very handy against thids and damaged mobs but i dont find my sorcerer using it all that much outside thids. Premonition, again, is one of those spells i like but i dont mind if its not at its full potential because again i dont or at least try not to get too close to the fist fighting.
Now for the gear... well, im not too sure. As a -HC- player since i began playing i've never ventured past the Hells, i've only ever gone to Malad so far. But if i had to say from what i've played up to now i'd go with.... (Tia - Staff, Belt, Boots, Cloak) Thid Gauntlets, Whatever rings are needed for the run. Im not sure about a helm or ammy so i wouldnt like to say.
Paragon Feats would be, 63 - Polymathy (This is great as you can chose whatever spell you want every now and then) 66 - P Spell Pen 69 - P Spell Focus Conj/Evo 72 - P Spell Knowledge Conj/Evo 75 - P Spell Focus Conj/Evo 78 - P Spell Focus Conj/Evo Im not too sure about this, again because i have not played my caster past 67 yet but i hope it helps a little bit.
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