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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 8, 2014 21:36:25 GMT
List of Current Problematic XR Subraces:
Per the XR Subraces Mark 3 thread, here are the subraces considered in need of possible edits. For the sake of clarity, useless or very problematic abilities will be highlighted in red, sub-optimal or slightly problematic abilities in orange, and passable abilities which could be replaced with something better in yellow. These subraces are as follows:
"Fallen" (secret eXtremely Rare; adds wings) - FC: Sorcerer / BC: Blackguard - STR +6, CON +1, INT +2, CHA +5, Hide +5 - Free Feats: Cleave, Still Spell, Empower Spell, Great Strength I, Mounted Combat - Other: Immunity to all Bigby spells, Survival: Levitation
"Favored of Gruumsh" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Monk - STR +6, DEX +2, CON +2, WIS +4 - Free Feats: WF/GWF: Quarterstaff, Armor Skin, Epic Prowess - Other: +5% Empty Body conceal
"Tanarukk" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Barbarian - STR +6, CON +4, INT +4 - Free Feats: ESF: Intimidate/Taunt, Terrifying Rage, Thundering Rage, Mighty Rage, Alertness - Other: Thundering Rage grants +3 fire dice if their weapon has fire (doesn't stack with flame weapon/darkfire)
List of Suggestions for Subrace Modifications:
Also, I will list examples of modified subraces based on the suggestions made for these subraces. Edited abilities will be listed in green. They are as follows:
"Fallen" (secret eXtremely Rare; adds wings) - FC: Sorcerer / BC: Blackguard - STR +6, WIS +3, CHA +5, Hide +5 - Free Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Still Spell, Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), Great Strength I, Great Strength II - Other: Effective Bonus Focus to Bigby Hands, Survival: Levitation
"Favored of Gruumsh" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Monk - STR +4, DEX +4, CON +2, INT +2, WIS +2 - Free Feats: Power Attack, Great Cleave, WF/GWF: Quarterstaff, Great Strength I, Epic Prowess - Other: +5% Empty Body conceal
"Tanarukk" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Barbarian - STR +6, CON +4, INT +4 - Free Feats: ESF: Intimidate/Taunt, Terrifying Rage, Thundering Rage, Mighty Rage, Alertness - Other: Thundering Rage grants +6 fire dice if their weapon has fire (doesn't stack with flame weapon/darkfire)
Please note: All of these are a work in progress, I have only updated them with my own suggestions and those that I have observed from forum posts. You will notice that some things which have been suggested as possibly problematic are still marked as yellow until a suggestion is made for replacing them. I will keep this thread update with proposed edits, and add additional XR subraces to this thread as they are brought up in discussion.
If you would like, I can also add the rationale behind why removed ability is problematic per forum discussion, and also give the justification for the addition of the bonuses listed in the modified subrace descriptions. Hopefully this thread will help us to flush out some of the possible edits to these subraces so that we can make sure there are no bad XR subraces.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 8, 2014 23:59:26 GMT
If you would like, I can also add the rationale behind why removed ability is problematic per forum discussion, and also give the justification for the addition of the bonuses listed in the modified subrace descriptions. Hopefully this thread will help us to flush out some of the possible edits to these subraces so that we can make sure there are no bad XR subraces. Uh, yes. No rationale = no edit. Funky
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 9, 2014 0:12:01 GMT
Haha, okay. Figured that was the case. Just didn't know if we wanted to move all the rationale from the other threads here too. But definitely would be easier for consolidating and such. I'll get that done later this evening.
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Post by bazukar on Feb 9, 2014 1:03:28 GMT
For the gruumsh sub I like the stat changes. I'm still not a fan of prowess as an epic feat because of my reasoning above. I also don't like weapon focus feats because now I have a ton of feat glut at lower levels, and if I go fighter for weapon spec I have to take several very less than optimal feats. The sub as it is suggested feels like it leads you to the WM/HS variant. I think base weapon spec and a WM prereq feat would be a better choice for the sub rather than WF and prowess. I think that leaving the conceal bonus is a bad idea and something to increase Qstaff damage outside of weapon spec should be added. As it is, if I take my staffmonk's stats, swap str for dex and change focus to fist, there is a difference of only 2 damage and 3 ab. An idea for this is to allow the wis damage bonus to work on Qstaves either in general, or for this sub. If the former then I think a small % buff would be nice, like 15~%, if the latter then have it be 1.5 or 2x wis mod. Another possibility to beef damage would be to allow a multiple of the strength mod to be applied.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 9, 2014 1:27:25 GMT
Yeah, I left the 5% bonus conceal in yellow because I wasn't sure what exactly you guys wanted to replace it. I can update that in the thread now that you've made a suggestion for it.
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Post by bazukar on Feb 9, 2014 1:57:42 GMT
It's kind of hard to make a suggestion to replace that bonus. It's an extremely strong bonus and I can't say I'd be sad to see it stay, but I could go stupid glass cannon or unkillable monster build with that as a crutch. Alternatively making an offensive bonus relatively equal to it is also hard without getting shot down as overpowered. Definitely welcome to additional ideas.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 9, 2014 2:14:27 GMT
Here's my rationale for my proposed changes for Fallen, copy/pasted from my other thread:
STR +6: Useful for the same reason as the original subrace formulation. STR +6 is absolutely required for this to still be a viable XR subrace. WiS +3: So much more useful than +1 CON and +2 INT. Blackguard spells add a great deal of flavor and range for Bane Knights, especially CC Blackguard Bane Knights. CHA +5: Still great, for the same reasons as the original subrace description. Hide +5: Ditto. Power Attack: While getting Cleave is a great benefit, the vast majority of Bane Knights are always going to be CC Blackguard. Those Bane Knights are almost guaranteed to take Overwhelming Critical/Devastating Critical in their weapon of choice. Power Attack is required to take Great Cleave, which is required to take those feats. This is a very nice added bonus for Bane Knights who suffer very much from being feat-starved, especially in pre-epic levels. Cleave: Still good for the reasons above. Still Spell: Ditto. Spell Focus (Evocation): Here's where we really get into making this subrace viable for Bane Knights. As it stands now, most Bane Knights feel like they have to exclude spell focus feats from their builds, many of them taking Spell Penetration, by book, just for the sake of landing the few precious spells that they do have. Giving Spell Focus as a subrace bonus does a number of things. First, it allows Bane Knights to not have to rely on a part 3 Abyss set item to have any spell focus, which in itself is a crying shame. Second, it allows for build diversity, increasing the viability of CC Sorcerer Bane Knights who, with this subrace, would be able to take a second set of Spell Focus feats in pre-epic levels, for a total of three school foci total if they use a tome for a third. Thirdly, it allows CC Blackguard Bane Knights to finally be more than gimped Battle Clerics because they can actually afford the feats to take the necessary spell foci to be able to cast offensive spells when necessary. Finally, it does a good job of restricting the subrace to Bane Knights, making it more exclusively designed for them, which is a great thing if you ask me. Greater Spell Focus (Evocation): See above. Great Strength I-II: As I said before, Great Strength I just isn't enough. Considering other caster XR subraces get +8 to their stat, and some even +10 including feats, +8 total for Fallen doesn't seem at all out of line or overpowered. This is especially true when you consider the fact that Bane Knights are dependent on their Strength modifier not only for DC, but Spell Penetration as well. Increasing their Strength with this extra feat will allow Bane Knights to more easily reach a 32 STR modifier, granting +8 Spell Penetration and alleviating the need to invest in Spell Penetration feats, which unfortunately most Bane Knights currently have resigned themselves to doing. Just to be clear, you can currently get to a 32 STR mod with Fallen, but you have to invest a lot more in Strength, leaving a lot of other ability scores too low. Because of the nature of the class, which needs to be able to tank a variety of mobs and be marginally successful at passing ability checks, you need to invest at least some amount in DEX and a good amount in CON to make up for your lower Hit Points from Sorcerer levels. Bonus Effective Spell Focus for Bigby Hands: Not strictly necessary, but, seeing as though so many other subraces get very cool class-specific bonuses (I'm looking at you, Half-Ogre Mage!), this just seems to make sense. As far as their spellcasting goes, Bane Knights are currently pretty much one-trick ponies. If they're going to be one-trick ponies, I say we make sure they're the best darn ponies they can be. There is no chance of the server suddenly becoming unbalanced because Bane Knights are suddenly grabbing things more easily. Levitation: Still good for the reasons above.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 9, 2014 2:15:36 GMT
And here's Raj's rationale for the changes to Tanarukk: "I think the tanarukk is going to be the underdog there, 6str/4con/4int on half orc with 3 barb specific feats, a feat useful only if you splash harper scout, and a special that does exactly nothing if you have a cleric or a mage buffing your weapon; I think I'd use a half orc koly over it, definitely a superior choice if wm splash, and even w/o it still grants a nice boost to the offstat; since everybody agrees koly is OP, let say I'd even use half guardinal over it, especially if 3 pally splash for saves/divine might. The build seems to be aimed at a 31/5harper/4fighter splash, but then the Neraphim (same stats boni on human base, with 5 standard tank feats and +50% imm) makes a better tank when you accept the weak dexterity on both races. Considering a standard weapon buff provides +4 damage dices and you get it in 99.9% of parties (seriously, who goes w/o cleric AND mage? okay, I just did a prince but it really was the first time people were wondering about lack of fire buffs in all these years ), the tanarukk +3 dices could be safely improved to +6 dices, on par with the Sword Archon (self darkfire +2 dices); if that seems too much, consider a bfm can already buff +5 dices for the whole party, and the unique has to be unique afterall."
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Post by Vichya on Feb 9, 2014 5:53:56 GMT
I disagree with some of your objections of the Fallen subrace:
I'd prefer some int bonus to wisdom. Blackguards can take hide in legendary levels to get some concealment from camouflage. In order to do so and take the usual tank skills and maybe 20 points in spellcraft for countering they need 16 base int.
I also don't get why a lot of Bane Knight players take evocation and spell penetration feats or use tha Abyss armor. Evocation is for two spells: the knockdown bigby which is nice and the damage one which isn't that useful. Bane Knights also get str mod/4 as spell penetration which can be up to 8. Taking 5 feats just to get +2 over that seems to be a bad choice.
Full immunity to bigby spells can be nice to have, not many items have it although I have no idea how many XR items will have that.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 9, 2014 6:28:04 GMT
You bring up a lot of good points. INT is definitely useful, I guess I just personally prefer WIS. Maybe some sort of compromise of 2 INT/WIS could be incorporated into the subrace. I do think Fallen needs some kind of inherent bonus to spellcasting though, seeing as though CC Sorcerer BK is already so uncommon and underpowered. It doesn't necessarily have to be Evocation. I would just like to be able to fit a couple LSFs on a Bane Knight without giving up everything else to do so (on CC Blackguard I mean, I would hope that CC Sorcerer could fit 3 LSFs). In regards to the Bigby immunity, it's nice, but I think it's far from ideal. Also, I'm fairly certain the vast majority of demigod Bane Knights use Rampart, which has immunity to the majority of the Bigby spells on it. Just doesn't seem like full immunity is going to be terribly useful except in rare circumstances.
What about the other changes I've suggested? Would you agree that they need an extra Great Strength feat to put them 2 strength above Pharlan? And would you also agree that Empower Spell is mostly useless on a BK, and Mounted Combat is just a sheer waste? Also what about Power Attack, etc? Obviously this is why I said it's all a work in progress. I just posted my suggestions for the subrace, but naturally your input is really helpful.
EDIT: Suppose I should also ask this because I think it's an important thing to consider: would you use Fallen over Solarborn for a Bane Knight? Does it offer enough to the quasi-class to justify giving up the extra 1 point of STR and 25% divine immunity?
Another EDIT: How would you feel about something like this for feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Still Spell, Extend Spell, Great Strength I, Great Strength II? That way you're not forcing BKs to choose Evocation foci, but you're still freeing up feats for them to possible choose whatever focus they might want instead.
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Post by Vichya on Feb 9, 2014 6:40:52 GMT
Empower Spell is certainly not ideal, Extend Spell would be far better.
Mounted Combat might be ok, but that depends on whether this feat will be changed. There have been rumours for years that this feat and ride might become useful eventually.
Power Attack and Great Strength are good feats of course, so we'd have to look at other subrace to see if it's balanced.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 9, 2014 6:45:01 GMT
Mounted Combat might be ok, but that depends on whether this feat will be changed. There have been rumours for years that this feat and ride might become useful eventually. Ride is actually slated for an update, but that has nothing to do with why it was put on some subs. It's a prereq for PDK. Funky
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 9, 2014 6:50:16 GMT
It's the fact that it's a prereq for PDK which really bothers me. It doesn't seem to me that PDK splash should ever make its way into a Bane Knight build considering how much you would have to give up to fit it (5 spell pen, 5 CL on a number of spells that benefit highly from it including many important buffs and grabby hands, etc.). It's just not worth it in the slightest. For other XR subraces that are designed for divine STR meleers, sure. It's already on Solarborn and Half-Excruciarch, in fact, and I think it's at home there. But on a subrace specifically designed for a quasi-class? No way. I don't see any benefit in that.
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Post by Retribution on Feb 9, 2014 7:09:38 GMT
I have been looking at Half-Dogai and I am not sure it is particularly strong for the intended builds, namely STR Assassins. This isn't helped by the fact Assassins are naturally weak compared to Rangers, and also seem to be getting a weaker XR sub (the CS ranger sub Favored of Mielikki grants a better base race, better stats, and a DC bonus). I will also compare it to the current BUR option, Half-Molydeus
Half-Dogai (Half-Orc)
STR + 8 (+2 Half-Orc) DEX - 2 CON + 2 INT + 4 (-2 Half-Orc) WIS + 0 CHA + 0 (-2 Half-Orc)
Hide/MS + 8
WP Exotic, Med/Heavy Armour Prof, ESF Parry/Discipline, Cleave, Great Cleave, Bullheaded Blooded, Toughness from Base Race
+1 Caustic Weapon Die
Half-Molydeus (Human)
STR + 6 DEX + 0 CON + 2 INT + 4 WIS - 2 CHA + 0
Hide/MS + 8
ESF: Hide, Snakeblooded Free feat from Human, +1 Skill Point
- 1 Hell Penalty Layer
Firstly forcing Half-Orc hurts. While the +2 Str is good, any build that uses Half-Dogai will more than likely be taking Rogue levels (the skill bonus lets you take Assassin levels earlier so you can take other prestige full BAB classes to get +16 BAB). If you aren't taking Rogue levels you might as well use a more uni tank sub (such as the much discussed Koly). Fitting in rogue skills makes them very skill tight, and Half-Dogai is going to be down 2 skill points compared to Half-Moly (only +2 net int bonus, and loses bonus from human). Secondly, the base race feat blooded is useless for Assassins, as they get Tumble as a class skill, so the Human base feat is superior. Any STR Assassin will be taking Parry and Disc qualifiers, unless Assassins get some form of class crit immunity added, so Snakeblood will be somewhat of a default 1st level feat choice.
Some of the bonus feats are also not that useful. Most STR Assassins run with Martial weapons anyway for the crit range (light flail, scim, or rapier), although weapon balancing may change this. Almost any build is also going to take some levels of a full BAB class (BG/Fighter/Ranger etc), most of which grant armour proficiencies. Heavy armour proficiency is not particularly useful either, as Med almost always gives more AC, and Assassins don't have the immunities to work as heavy armour wearing soak tanks (no critical immunity is a major). The ESFs are nice but not that necessary, and Hide is often harder to max on gear than parry or disc. Bullheaded is good (actually a must really), and cleave/great cleave are also useful as pre-reqs for over/dev, but compared to Half-Moly you only really gain 1 feat (snakeblooded and human bonus vs bullheaded and cleave/great cleave).
The Dex penalty also plain hurts given STR Assassins generally want for AC and tend to suffer vs DEX checks as it is. Half-Moly has pretty good stats as it takes a penalty to wisdom (a dump stat anyway).
The extra caustic die is also relatively weak compared to a 1 layer reduction IMO, and equipping spellslots to buff everyone would be a major challenge.
Swapping Exotic Weapon Proficiency for Snakeblooded would help free up build choices by allowing other first level qualifiers to be taken. Removing the DEX penalty and changing it for Wisdom would help with AC/tankiness (but still discourage Divine tanks). Increasing INT to +6 (+4 net) would help a bit to alleviate the skill point issue, or perhaps bonus skill points for each Assassin level could be added, to stop other builds cheesing easy skill points. The Armour Proficiencies could also be changed for something more useful, like SF: OL or DT, or Great STR I/II. Have to pop out but will add more thoughts later, I am interested in what others think.
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Post by bazukar on Feb 9, 2014 7:11:16 GMT
I disagree with some of your objections of the Fallen subrace: I'd prefer some int bonus to wisdom. Blackguards can take hide in legendary levels to get some concealment from camouflage. In order to do so and take the usual tank skills and maybe 20 points in spellcraft for countering they need 16 base int. I also don't get why a lot of Bane Knight players take evocation and spell penetration feats or use tha Abyss armor. Evocation is for two spells: the knockdown bigby which is nice and the damage one which isn't that useful. Bane Knights also get str mod/4 as spell penetration which can be up to 8. Taking 5 feats just to get +2 over that seems to be a bad choice. Full immunity to bigby spells can be nice to have, not many items have it although I have no idea how many XR items will have that. IIRC the spell pen feats were taken because it was hard to have decent spell pen from str and have decent dex for checks at the same time back in the day, or that was the rationale. I only toyed with building one myself, someone better versed could probably splain it better.
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