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Post by jeanhelixü on Feb 26, 2014 16:55:38 GMT
Empowered can be better than Maximize when the variance of the damage roll is small. For example for combust empower is better, but I think that is also about the only useful for for which it is better. When the dice are d3s empower and maximize are equal, theoretically if damage immunity and resist are such that the spell would do no damage at precisely the value of maximize then empower could be better at that level. However there's invariably a better spell to be using at that point. Theoretical D2s empower would beat maximize, however D2 damage spells do not exist. There are precisely 3 spells a sorc uses that empower is better than maximize: melfs acid arrow, combust, and spell mantles. These spells empower is better because empower multiplies their CL benefit and not just their dice. These should never be a very large part of your damage however as they are single target spells and a buff. D4s and higher without huge +flat damage modifiers maximize does more damage. The majority of a sorcs main damage spells are d6s, with the aforementioned 14% increased damage. In addition to letting you get an extra mob with utd and cod hit dice rolls over empower.
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Post by Yojimbo on Feb 26, 2014 18:22:29 GMT
Wish I remembered what and how I did it but rough check from what you guys posted shows I was wrong I suspect I used a specific spell in my calculations and was one that includes a flat damage increase from CL.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 26, 2014 18:53:47 GMT
As much as I'd like to see this thread derailed further by a discussion of the comparative strengths of different metamagics, let's try and keep it to the topic at hand...
In regards to Kaorti, I have a feeling Funky isn't going to want to waste the coding he's done for its special. What about swapping Armor Skin for Epic Spell: Greater Ruin? And then add something that's comparable to the other two races' specials, albeit slightly weaker in power (maybe something like +1 SP for 6 and below or +1 DC for 4 and below - not sure what exactly would work here). That way, it's still significantly more powerful than Radiance Genasi (which it already is, of course) but less lackluster in comparison to the other XR subraces.
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Post by excruciator on Feb 26, 2014 20:38:42 GMT
As much as I'd like to see this thread derailed further by a discussion of the comparative strengths of different metamagics, let's try and keep it to the topic at hand... In regards to Kaorti, I have a feeling Funky isn't going to want to waste the coding he's done for its special. What about swapping Armor Skin for Epic Spell: Greater Ruin? And then add something that's comparable to the other two races' specials, albeit slightly weaker in power (maybe something like +1 SP for 6 and below or +1 DC for 4 and below - not sure what exactly would work here). That way, it's still significantly more powerful than Radiance Genasi (which it already is, of course) but less lackluster in comparison to the other XR subraces. I really do appreciate the time and effort which has/is being put into these subraces. However, swapping Armour Skin for Ruin would make the subrace even less attractive to me. Armour skin would have at least some limited utility for me. I objected to ruin before it lost a lot of comparative power because I find it to be a vulgar, un-fun panacea style spell. I really got sick of being in parties and watching as every vague party threat got hit by 3-4 casts of ruin simultaneously when it was the popular opinion that it was a "must have" for all casters. It rewards sloppy play and takes a lot of the fun out of choosing the appropriate spell for a given dangerous mob. I find that distasteful personally. I realise this won't be an opinion everyone shares, so feel free to take it with a healthy dose of salt. +1 dc for level 4 and below unfortunately wouldn't provide any significant incentive at all. It is just my personal opinion, but I think the only way to bring this in line with the other potential Sorcerer race choices is to remove the ruin bonus entirely, and replace it with something closer to the Wizard and Bfm specials. Elsewise, Half Djinni seems the head and shoulder superior choice to me. Incidentally as an aside, I will just point out that + con on a subrace is probably the least valuable stat increase to have by far, in the vast, vast majority of cases. Certainly in the case of this subrace, where the +2 dex on the bfm race is more useful by several orders of magnitude. Edit: Armoured mage is entirely useless, whichever way you look at it, for the kind of sorcerer this subrace is meant to cater for.
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Post by archmage on Feb 26, 2014 22:19:13 GMT
From a building standpoint, I think Kaorti is at least equivalent, if not better, than both of those, if you don't consider the specials. Compared to Half-Djinni it is far superior feat-wise, and compared to Illumian it's as good, or better, depending if you want Armor Skin or not. You're right, though. Once you throw in the specials, it's no contest. Armored Mage isn't useful. And extra Greater Ruin is only marginally useful by comparison. Considering the superiority of Kaorti's feat spread, I don't think you could justify, balance-wise, giving it a +1 SP or +1 DC to 6 and below (assuming they're equivalent as you've also done), but it definitely needs something of greater overall use. What about something like a 25% chance of channeled spells costing 1 less slot than normal? Or is that not as balanced as my gut tells me? EDIT: Also, could always just get rid of armor skin (along with the two specials of course) and then you could be better justified in giving it something like +1 SP or +1 DC to 6 and below. Did I in fact misread? It is not far superior feat-wise to Half-Djinni. It is at best equivalent.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 26, 2014 23:01:39 GMT
It's superior to Half-Djinni because it gets one more feat, has two Great Charismas, which Half-Djinni doesn't, and Half-Djinni gets no epic feats. Also you're locked into Evocation with Half-Djinni, whereas Spell Penetration feats are universally useful. So yes, Kaorti is superior as far as feats go. But again, +1 DC to Evocation makes Half-Djinni a superior race over all.
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Post by jeanhelixü on Feb 27, 2014 0:41:19 GMT
Being locked into taking greater ruin is way worse than evo. I've yet to encounter a sorc that did not take evo. While most sorcs don't take greater ruin anymore.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 27, 2014 3:12:02 GMT
You've definitely got a point, and I've already noted that the special is lackluster. The only reason I was trying to find a way to keep it is because I feel like Funky would be resistant to getting rid of it due to the work he's put into it. If we were to suggest getting rid of both the greater ruin and armored mage specials, what do you think would be a better alternative? I have a feeling that +1 SP is definitely not going to happen. Is something like the following balanced?
"Kaorti" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Sorcerer - CON +2, INT +2, CHA +8 - Free Feats: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Great Charisma I/II - Other: +1 DC to spells lvl 0-6
Obviously if it's going to have such a strong special, it needs to have the same number of feats (and the same pre-epic/epic feat distribution) as Illumian, and thus Armor Skin needs to go. Is this satisfactory for everyone?
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Post by jeanhelixü on Feb 27, 2014 3:23:24 GMT
Ideally Con would be exchanged for Dex, but this would at least make it close to Illumian.
Illumian is about what I hoped for out of caster XRs.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 27, 2014 3:29:08 GMT
Out of curiosity, would it really make a difference? Or is it standard on most sorcerers to start with 14 DEX, so that it's bumped to 16 by subrace, for a total of 38 at level 80? I ask out of ignorance, of course. Radiance Genasi gets +2 to both, so I would assume that most sorcerers start with 14 to one or both currently anyway, but if the majority of sorcerers prefer higher DEX to CON then I guess switching the bonus would make a lot of sense.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 4:14:22 GMT
Starting 14 Dex is optimal on most casters like druid/cleric/sorc. I do not think forum builds should be used as any basis of comparison for any XR sub (not saying they are right now but have been in the past) because in general forum builds are out of date and new ones are rarely posted because it leads to them being rapidly copied and eventually nerfed.
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Post by excruciator on Feb 27, 2014 4:19:30 GMT
I am in total concurrence with Jean. Out of curiosity, would it really make a difference? Or is it standard on most sorcerers to start with 14 DEX, so that it's bumped to 16 by subrace, for a total of 38 at level 80? I ask out of ignorance, of course. Radiance Genasi gets +2 to both, so I would assume that most sorcerers start with 14 to one or both currently anyway, but if the majority of sorcerers prefer higher DEX to CON then I guess switching the bonus would make a lot of sense. The dex is more useful for a number of reasons; one there are a lot more debilitating dex checks than con checks; two, raises ac by one point, and a lot of mages enjoy the amplifying effect a respectable ac score has combined with their conceal; three, the extra health points granted by 2 con are not significant. Afterall, dying to damage is the vast majority of the time due to huge spikes rather than multiple low damage hits over time. There are, afterall, heal pots. It's not just sorcerers, it is the same for the majority of builds.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 27, 2014 4:26:00 GMT
Right, that's definitely what I thought was the case. Just wanted some more clarification so that we had a clearer rationale for why CON should be switched out for DEX. I opened this can of worms by starting the thread so I figure I can at least help to guide the discussion to some degree. So then I guess most everyone is in a agreement that this would be more or less the ideal formulation for Kaorti: "Kaorti" (secret eXtremely Rare) - FC: Sorcerer - DEX +2, INT +2, CHA +8 - Free Feats: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Great Charisma I/II - Other: +1 DC to spells lvl 0-6 Of course, the real question is how Funky feels about it.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 27, 2014 5:03:56 GMT
You've definitely got a point, and I've already noted that the special is lackluster. The only reason I was trying to find a way to keep it is because I feel like Funky would be resistant to getting rid of it due to the work he's put into it. If we were to suggest getting rid of both the greater ruin and armored mage specials, what do you think would be a better alternative? I have a feeling that +1 SP is definitely not going to happen. Is something like the following balanced? You're right, though not entirely for those reasons. Yes, I'm resistant to making radical changes to what was worked out nearly a year ago, and which a great deal of time was spent implementing (not to mention testing - and thank you for that, TS). The main reason for my resistance is not, however, the additional work itself, though that is problematic given the limited amounts of dev time, but the premise of many suggested modifications, like the removal of ruin, on the premise that they should be based on the current status quo, which as I have noted on many occasions, is in a state of imbalance due to the introduction of plevs sans the introduction of plev areas. Sure, ruin isn't nearly as fancy-looking as it was, but that's for reasons which are likely to change (not to mention the fact that it has not been adjusted for paragon dcs, as that edit is still in Limbo (pun intended). Balancing on the premise that a current feat, once useful, is now useless, and thus must be discounted, is seriously flawed, because we're always working to increase the utility of the various feats, as a predicate to increasing build diversity. The solution to non-permanent imbalances is not to build in offsets, but to redress the imbalances. Otherwise you wind up in a neverending cycle of mis-aimed offsets. There have also been a lot of suggestions that appear fairly off-the-cuff, without much consideration for the original reasons for the current statting. A number of people have suggested removal of armor skin as a 'wasted' feat, but it was never given all that much weight in the original considerations. It is, rather, highly thematic, as anyone who's taken the time to look up Kaorti would likely realize ( here's my five-second googling of it, which has the salient information), though it's not entirely without utility. The above issues, among other things, make me fairly uninterested in the last few pages of back-and-forth, though there HAVE been some valid points raised. What I have NOT see, though, is a broader, more nuanced look at the problems, and what, if anything, needs to be done to address them. I'm definitely planning the first set of tweaks we discussed, though, after a little more consideration. Funky
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Post by fallenwizard on Feb 27, 2014 12:58:07 GMT
I dunno if no one else came up with an idea to make a XR sorc armor that gives you about same specials than wrap does with addition to not effecting EV? I mean, there's always been sorcs running with asmo shield (personaly prefer ring thou) but still the point is, if you can always work around the restriction of EV with gear. Not sure thou if making an medium armor as equivalnt of bur robe is something people would want to use over straight up improved XR robe. Who knows. It'd also raise up some what annoying instance of having to acquire and equip item with armor prof after login to get the armor back up, this can get messy if your front page is full of items since the unequipped armor will always force on 2x3 corner and will force other items to move, potentialy messing up some stuff out inventory and destroyed.
Anyways, start suggesting XR loots is my advice.
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