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Post by kusin111 on Mar 23, 2014 19:32:20 GMT
Is this rule still being thought of, or is it set in stone? I can see the general idea and the reasoning behind the rule, but telling people they have to play with others , or generally telling people how to play a game is kinda ridiculous. I don't have anyone blacklisted and enjoy playing with everyone, but removing the ability to make the choice is a little overboard for me.
Kusin
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 23, 2014 19:53:39 GMT
Pretty sure the staff is open to suggestions. If you have ideas about to improve on the rule, feel free to share.
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Post by Torin on Mar 23, 2014 20:26:22 GMT
What about this:
Only members of a guild must be invited with the new rule. All others only if you want.
Why? - Because typical people in a guild have proven at least to some other players that they are ok. Known problematic players (say like a Rockkutter) will never make it to a guild member. - From what I ve read the new rule was in particularly implemented because some DMs has been treaded bad because they did they job as a DM (reporting exploits as an example). Since mostly all DMs are in a guild they would still profit from the new rule.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 23, 2014 22:12:59 GMT
That's more narrowly cut, and I like it better as a result. We'll add that note as an addendum. Very nice, Torin, thanks.
Kusin, I get that you don't like it, and why, and yes, it's still being discussed and worked on. If you have a better way to deal with the problem, by all means, speak up.
Funky
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 17:47:46 GMT
Am curious - there is already a mechanism in place which shows when a portal is opened to a particular LL or higher run. How hard would it be for there to be an automatic server wide message stating someone has opened that portal and a compulsory 5 minute gap until you actually commenced the run?
The rule would then kinda be hardcoded as people would know the run was about to happen and have at least 5 minutes to join if they wanted?
Perhaps you could just use this initially for say Abo, Ely, POP and Hell?
Kratlin
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 24, 2014 18:31:35 GMT
I like that, save for the fact that it tends to slow down runs, which we've been working hard to ease formation of. Maybe just an interserver message would suffice? Respawn takes a good while.
Funky
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Post by chirality on Mar 24, 2014 19:06:57 GMT
If the players in question no longer play the game, then is this still an issue?
I'd propose to give this some time and see if it remains something which still requires attention? If indeed this rule is still warranted, then by all means implement it; but perhaps an additional observation period (I'm sure there's already been such before this action was taken anyway) could suffice to ensure that there's no more complaints about blacklister players and thus no more need for special rules to deal with it.
It looks like the point has been made and the damage done?
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 24, 2014 21:38:09 GMT
I did briefly discuss that potential solution with staff, or rather a more limited version of it - just banning the main offenders. Unfortunately, that doesn't deal with the problem heading forward.
Funky
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Post by tank on Mar 25, 2014 1:48:20 GMT
I did briefly discuss that potential solution with staff, or rather a more limited version of it - just banning the main offenders. Unfortunately, that doesn't deal with the problem heading forward. Funky I honestly don't see where any of this is coming from, I have not seen anyone blacklisting new players - I have seen veteran players not getting invited because they make mistakes and are selfish, and people usually want to enjoy runs...because you know, this is like a game and stuff. (is doing a run with friends, and not inviting people who have not asked to be in the run black listing? if so I guess lots of people are guilty) it just seems like this rule appeared out of thin air with no rime or reason, perhaps just what seemed like a good way to blame someone for lack of interest in HG?
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Mar 25, 2014 3:54:26 GMT
(is doing a run with friends, and not inviting people who have not asked to be in the run black listing? if so I guess lots of people are guilty) You're smarter than to even think this. Please, stop trolling. While I too did not think this was an issue, it must have been because Funky is, usually, the #1 guy to allow autonomy and code-around weak spots.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 25, 2014 4:41:57 GMT
Let's not be too hasty, Were. Tank has a point. There definitely was no rime associated with this rule. Nay, nor any hoarfrost, not a spot. This is definitely one ice-free rule. Furthermore, I'm sure that the fact that his guild was home to the problem culprits has absolutely nothing to do with his persistent trolling and his insistence that this is clearly a solution looking for a problem. NO WAY was anyone actually blacklisting players. And if they were, NO WAY was it a problem. And hey, if it was, no WAY has he seen anyone doing it. And if he did, NO WAY were they in his guild. Nuh-uh. Clearly this is a partisan witch hunt motivated by my overweening sense of something something. And fish sticks. Back on topic: tank, I'm not interested in posts trying to pretend away the problem. They might have some comedic value, if they weren't so transparent. Kindly reread my initial post in this thread, and try to be part of the solution, instead of part of the problem. As for 'blaming someone for lack of interest in HG', why on earth would I need to do that? If you actually troubled yourself to read the thread you're trolling, you'd have seen that I lay the blame for that right at my own doorstep: I applaud you for being, apparently, the only critic of the rule who actually read my post and posted an alternative. Sadly, your alternative smacks of someone with no clue or appreciation for the amount of work that would take. If I had that kind of time, we'd be three or four paragon areas in at least, and would have enough players that this kind of rule would not be necessary. So, if you actually have any genuine concern for the server, kindly stop wasting the only remaining dev's time with this tripe. Funky
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Post by Xiayu on Mar 25, 2014 7:08:53 GMT
I would like to take a moment to point out that this is a game. A game is played to have fun, not as a second job; no one needs to be told what to do, how to play or with who to play. That is, of course, as long as it doesn’t infringe upon anyone else’s fun or time. What is fun varies depending on people, for me it comes from challenging content and being able to play with people you enjoy spending time with. Now I have been on this server for many years, and over that time I have stopped playing it on certain periods for that second reason only.
This rule simply takes away the ability to form groups with the players you would enjoy playing (unless you are a full group) and if you do that, then you are just taking the fun out of the game. You need to consider that there are many different play styles as there are personalities, you can’t force everyone to play together if they don’t fit each other. Usually it isn’t a nice experience for either side.
Most people that have posted here claim that they know why this rule is being forced, so why don’t we start being clear? Who is this group of villains? Are they really driving away new players? Are they oppressing players to voice their opinion on forum if it doesn’t match theirs? Are those players really being blacklisted for such reasons? I think these facts are very misguided and mostly just a product of a player that has been known as a trouble maker in the past (banned several times and claiming to want this server destroyed, I guess no big deal now?)
First, this rule was aimed at a group of players only, mostly UTs. As far as I am aware, no new players were ever troubled by this, as UTs mostly play on endgame areas and no ‘new’ players gets there that easy, right?
There was never any kind of blacklisting going on, (jokes about it yes, even about their own members, but no one blacklisted that I saw). I think ‘blacklisted’ is being used out of context here, if someone that asked to join was disliked by a member, that member always offered to drop for them, but then it becomes a matter of playing with who you have fun, you simply can’t force people to be together.
There are other reasons for not inviting people that have nothing to do with this issue. High demi iterations (paragon scaling on SR), level 80s on level 60 areas make it so you are better off with small sized groups. Not only this but having a small sized party allows you to fully explore your class capabilities, increasing overall your enjoyment. This is the main reason many players opt for such groups.
UT is a guild and therefore they play with guild members, maybe some friends from time to time. What is the point of a guild if they can’t even play just by themselves? They don’t shout runs, yet people come to the server just doing a “LFG” message and expecting an invitation without even asking anyone. Some vets have just taken it for granted that they deserve a spot on any run no matter what or how they play or even how they treat others. You don’t get too far by playing in a rude or selfish manner on a party server. Unfortunately, such attitudes have become very prevalent of late, and it is compounded by the low playerbase which bottlenecks players more towards awkward party interactions which they would rather not have to make.
I am aware I am not offering any alternative suggestions here, but this rule is self defeating. It is an attempt to make endgame runs more inclusive; however, what it achieves is reduction in endgame runs and simply a net loss of players for no gain to anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 10:28:17 GMT
Putting the finger pointing aside for a moment. I have been on servers where runs/games just start and whoever joins gets to play. Sometimes you get to play with friends but sometimes not, just depends if you sign up in time.
The question is - is this a good model for HG?
The issue here is complex. The toughest runs really need a couple of experienced players to help them along. New players need to run with experienced ones to learn the runs and get better items, toons and game skills.
New players (and even old ones that just can't or won't learn) make runs slower and at greater risk of failure, consequently less enjoyable for experienced players.
So an inevitable situation has arisen whereby some players really do not find it fun to run in the groups above preferring to stick to a select group of highly experienced friends only.
I personally have no problem with this, if that is what they want to do so be it.
Where this all falls down is when the group of experienced players start 'griefing' or as it has been put here 'Blacklisting'. This is a very subtle art - a word here, a comment there. Before you know it the experienced player who joins the group stops running with less experienced ones. Players get sucked into it even though they are not really like that themselves. Players who once happily ran with anyone now bunker down convincing themselves its them and us. It factionalizes the server and de-humanizes individuals.
So has it got so bad on HG that we need a rule to drive these people away. I don't know - there is clearly alot more going on behind the scenes than I know. I have seen the behavior but did it warrant such a new rule - the DM Team seem to think so - lets give it a try for a while and see if they are right. Time will show if we get more inclusive runs with players progressing through the server and player population growing or not.
If people start leaving in their droves because of this then the DM Team too should be flexible and look to review this policy.
Kratlin
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Post by sabregirl on Mar 25, 2014 12:23:55 GMT
Lets recognize this though, not only was said guild running only with its own players it was also running nearly always totally anonymous. This is probably why people are wondering where the rule came from, since the only people that could actually observe the situation were DMs. Not only was this behavior hostile to those "blacklisted" (which was more than one person) but to others who might have been welcomed. It is also instructive to see this was not always typical behavior for UT. In the past, runs have been shouted, new players mentored etc. But once a certain critical mass was reached they simply dropped off the map and became far more exclusive. I wonder if the anon rule is sufficient and if said players are unwilling to play without being able to be hidden (I'm not aware of other games where large numbers of players are able to be hidden from the rest of the server) then everyone will see where the fault lies.
-S
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Post by tank on Mar 25, 2014 14:36:59 GMT
Lets recognize this though, not only was said guild running only with its own players. -S isn't this what guilds normally do? is it possible that people get invited to guilds because the guild as a whole enjoys playing with them? also, it seems in poor taste to slander a guild and not provide any proof. whom has whispered in funky's ear I wonder
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