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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2014 16:05:41 GMT
I am in UT, and am a guide Not anymore. Team members are not allowed to exclude players from their parties, or to participate in parties that practice such behavior.. You're charged with a higher standard of behavior, one based on the good of the server, not your own personal enjoyment. Even were that not the case, advocating for such a practice would demonstrate poor enough judgment for me to reach the same conclusion. Funky I broke no rules of your DM handbook, yet you let certain DMs/Admins abuse dm_port abilities, and even go around spawning crazy amounts of BURs in oinos for years without even removing them until yours truly reports it to you despite a number of DMs refusing to come forward about the issue. So much for Sheinja's core pillar of "Respect:" The only bullies here are you and your illusory staff that want to bully people off the server because lazy people are jealous that they aren't getting abyss tags. "Blacklisting" (despite the fact I've never refused to invite somebody because they are "blacklisted") blocking progress is a complete joke. Every single run on the server can be done in a party of 2 characters. Yes, you might have to play certain classes, but that's the price you have to pay with low population. Corrections: Tia requires 5 characters to hit lever. Prince fights/pelor just require 5 wanded characters to start conversation/open portal (but these can be logged out to reuse later).
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Post by tyranlthixis on Mar 26, 2014 18:20:26 GMT
Not anymore. Team members are not allowed to exclude players from their parties, or to participate in parties that practice such behavior.. You're charged with a higher standard of behavior, one based on the good of the server, not your own personal enjoyment. Even were that not the case, advocating for such a practice would demonstrate poor enough judgment for me to reach the same conclusion. Funky I broke no rules of your DM handbook, yet you let certain DMs/Admins abuse dm_port abilities, and even go around spawning crazy amounts of BURs in oinos for years without even removing them until yours truly reports it to you despite a number of DMs refusing to come forward about the issue. So much for Sheinja's core pillar of "Respect:" The only bullies here are you and your illusory staff that want to bully people off the server because lazy people are jealous that they aren't getting abyss tags. "Blacklisting" (despite the fact I've never refused to invite somebody because they are "blacklisted") blocking progress is a complete joke. Every single run on the server can be done in a party of 2 characters. Yes, you might have to play certain classes, but that's the price you have to pay with low population. Corrections: Tia requires 5 characters to hit lever. Prince fights/pelor just require 5 wanded characters to start conversation/open portal (but these can be logged out to reuse later). You're a talented player Laser, but your leading people to believe there isn't an issue here when there is. When I saw the screen shot that KE posted my jaw literally dropped. To say... oh no I didn't really mean to "black list him".... I just decided to "not seek him out" anymore is bullshit in light of your behavior and your words to him. Your only response should have been 1.) I'm sorry 2.) fix any wrongs you created. DMs are involved in balancing the sever. KE was just doing his job. If you have a personal issue with a nerf, get mad at Funky and argue with him. He is the one with the nerf bat. We've all, over the years, had aspects of the game tweaked/removed/changed that we've really liked. We have had cases where Funky, has reverse his decisions based on solid arguments. If you can't handle the responsibility of knowing who the nerf reporters are, then ask to be de-DM'd. The to honorable thing. We have a bunch of new areas coming out AND we can finally retweak old areas in light of gear/power creep and we need level headed people looking at that. The reason there is no explicit rule in the DM handbook over blacklisting is we've never ever ever had a DM bullying other DMs in this way. It is self evident. We shouldn't have to say that. What we've always had is an expectation, that DMs rise above the pettiness of their parties (in terms of blacklisting) and not tolerate it. That goes back before even Sabregirl was a DM. We had a few players leave over the issue then. We had a bully player who wanted Funky to enforce his blacklist during an area test run that everybody was invited to. Funky said no and he left the party. The power game he was involved in was more important to him than playing on the server. He felt he ran with enough DMs that he'd be forced to compromise his personal preferences and run with players on his long black list. I'm just puzzled that you can't see what you did was wrong here. You also eluded to Werehound. You have no idea how much self restraint it took to let him do what he was doing. Funky and Acaos needed time to investigate everything he was doing and the extent of the damage he caused. That took time and lots of it. The damage he caused was quite extensive and it ate up what little time Funky had. We were told not to tip him off in any way for the good of the server. When it was over, we kicked him out of the guild. He's a nice guy and very likable but we do have standards and what he did was inexcusable.
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Post by tyranlthixis on Mar 26, 2014 19:05:25 GMT
Since you want to be open about it: 1) I never gotten mad at KE for reporting an exploit, yes I disagreed with one particular exploit he reported about shifters, but I got mad at a comment he made about something being overpowered simply because that was one of the only reasons to take the ability. It did NOT have to do with him reporting an exploit. I have reported many exploits myself that have adversely affected my toons. Furthermore, I already stated in my next post I wasn't even completely serious and to top it off I was not playing NWN for months at the time (moved on to another game). I have had MUCH more heated discussions with Raj on Skype about balancing and we still are friends and like to play with each other. Why? See next point. 2) He ONLY has ever played tanks, NEVER banks, NEVER does any sort of party support, focuses after all the crittable mobs to top logger score, and to top it off nearly got defrocked for starting to port to the aug shop to get items for free. 3) He decides to almost always farm Oinos instead of helping form runs unless he needs tag. When's the last time you saw him try to actually put in the effort to organize a run? So yes, I think I will avoid partying with him because I think he is an extremely selfish player. I guess if blacklisting and not seeking anyone out is the same, then when I first joined Sheinja and we were doing guild runs without shouting and inviting everyone, that's blacklisting the entire server too? I think you may believe the above is true, but it is really hard to believe what your saying is true. 1% of the server starts runs.... woopity doo..... such a horrible crime to jump on other peoples runs. Lots of people play limited class roles (most of them play only casters). Did you see the screen shots of your conversation with KE?... and actually read them? They look really bad. I think you're making excuses and deluding yourself. Everything was downhill from that point onwards and it can't be a coincidence. KE is the nicest player I've ever met on HG. Don't even have to think about that one. He's a talented player as well. That is undeniable. There is no reason anybody would ever not want to play with somebody like that. Your treatment of him is shameful. If you go and don't come back, you made that choice. Nobody has banned you and nobody dislikes you here....and you will be missed. You're walking away for your own reasons and under your own volition here.
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Post by chainlink on Mar 26, 2014 19:09:52 GMT
I'm sorry to see anybody leave ................well apart from Rocknutter He's actually banned. He didn't leave. Forcibly evicted, I was aware of that I am sad to see anybody go though we need all the players we can get to keep the best NWN mod in existence up and running.
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Post by tyranlthixis on Mar 26, 2014 21:19:55 GMT
So back on topic, what is wrong with blacklisting players? Why should people be forced to play with people they don't get along with? This isn't a job, or a team. Funky doesn't want to tolerate blacklisting anymore? Maybe we could end things right there? What the thread should be about is how to best implement the rule not whether it should exist. We would love to focus on that aspect. If you don't like an aspect of implementation, suggest a solution that will leave a smaller footprint. 1.) We are not talking about forcing a relationship between two people who mutually dislike each other. Blacklisting is one sided and favors the person in the position of power. 2.) We don't have a player base of 10,000 active players for mistreated players to fall back on. We have a small pond. The rule is based on long history of this kind of behavior that occasionally has wratched up. We would have probably had a rule years ago after a player (with considerable power) actually threatened a DM after he wouldn't help him exploit. The offending player(s) faded out of existence so it was not acted upon. This is not based on a few isolated incidents. It has just become more intolerable as of late (again). We need to find an effective way of dealing with the issue. If we have a few players who rage quit because Funky has the nerve to ask them to tone it down a notch and occasionally be an ambassador for the server.... the injustice.... let's all quit!!!! 3.) Blacklisting has nothing to do with player behavior. It is a bullying behavior based on power and self esteem. Why should players have to tolerate this? You have a right to be an asshole. We're just limiting the functional power of chronic assoholism to drag down the server. If you can't control your behavior and blacklisting/player power dynamics is the only reason you play, please go haunt another mmorpg. We really don't need you.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 26, 2014 21:54:33 GMT
If you'll read the original post, the intention of this thread was to allow opportunity for discussion. The fact that it boiled down to such a fiasco is because of the heated discussion that followed. If players had taken more incentive in actually discussing the rule and possible amendments to it, rather than becoming instantly defensive and decrying it as injustice, there would have been a much different result.
That being said, there is still an opportunity to have such a discussion if everyone's up to it. I have my own ideas, but I'm about to start work here in a few minutes and am unable to post in detail at this time. Perhaps you can go ahead and begin to lead this thread in the right direction by examining the rule and making suggestions for changes to it? I think everyone would be really appreciative if you did.
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Post by wicked on Mar 26, 2014 22:07:58 GMT
After reading all the posts about this new rule, I am still on the fence about it. I understand the reasons for this new rule, especially if "blacklisting" was happening because of a different opinion of someone else. Now my main problem with the rule, is as I understand it, is the potential to force two players who don't like each other to party together. Which in turn can ruin the run for everyone involved. Nobody wants to be on a run of any kind, whether it be low level or end game, were two players are constantly bickering back and forth. Now Funky did make a good point, the players don't have to speak to each other and can just do the run. But lets face it, its a game, and people are sitting in their living/bedrooms and are more inclined to TYPE things they would never say in person. Just the way of the internet now a days. Please remember this is a video game and EVERYONE has the right to enjoy their time playing it. That includes the blacklisters/bullies. I think guilds should also reserve the right to do guild runs or guild parties. But, as with other things on the server there should be guidelines for guild parties. As I have come to understand guild parties in my time on MMO's, is a group of people belonging to a certain guild. So I purpose that any guild party should be members of any one guild. They should also be announced as guild only runs. For instance guild A has 8 people online and want to do a dis run. They would then announce a a run message along the line of Guild only run on 215. They don't have to say what run they are doing, but that will let everyone know that they are not being blacklisted, just that they are doing a guild only event/run. It may seem as a work around to your new rule. But IMHO it's just the opposite. If player a is a blacklister or whatnot and running with guild A. the only way he can exclude anyone from a run is to run a guild only run. Which limits HIS run potential not the rest of the server. Personally I believe HG has a great community, but it is full of human beings, and being human, everyone has likes dislikes and ultimately clicks and groups. Personally I think Trying to police player habits, likes, dislikes or whatnot is a slippery slope. Now policing actions that blatantly infringe on other people's play time/enjoyment is something totally different.
Now as far the new rule goes. As I read it, and correct me if I'm wrong. Not only are you worried about this trend affecting new players, you are also worried about new players seeing this as acceptable behavior. Which is understandable.
So my rule edit proposal is a simple one actually. Run's can reserve the right to call for certain classes. Example. Run forming on 211 Rona at 4 looking for bcd. Now they have six spots open but three are reserved for bard cleric and druid. which means three other classes of any kind can show up. Also, with most cases in life, certain people just really don't get along well. So, I purpose a player reserves the right to leave/drop a run if some one joins they do not get along with without threat of being punished for personal taste.
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Post by Bad on Mar 26, 2014 22:08:09 GMT
To any of my friends still playing, bye, I had a fun time here and I hope the server evolves and grows, but I am afraid I no longer wish to be a part of it. I am very saddened by this Laser, I hope you will reconsider.
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Post by Enius the White on Mar 26, 2014 23:16:38 GMT
Lets recognize this though, not only was said guild running only with its own players. -S isn't this what guilds normally do? is it possible that people get invited to guilds because the guild as a whole enjoys playing with them?Interesting point of view, but if guilds run only with guild members, then they would never discover these new, enjoyable players. Right? HG has always been free, so without paying monthly cash with the expectation of stuff getting done for me, I like to ask myself "what have I done for HG", from time to time. The answer is usually "not much". One way that I can contribute to HG is to simply treat other players so as to support their enjoyment of the server. It's fun, and easy. This way they stay, bring a friend maybe, and we all continue to benefit from the community that we thus strengthen and build. Guilds are the strongest player based pillars of the HG community, and thereby control the greatest opportunity to help the community, and themselves, in this way. Guilds are perfectly suited to lend their strengths and party forming flexibility to allow newer, and and any other individual players, opportunities to participate in end-game runs. A guild that " runs only with itself", is at best, a failed member of the HG community. Trying to then influence the community can be self-serving, indeed. In short, anyone arguing for the unfettered right to play exclusively with themselves, anonymously, without inviting/interacting with other members of the HG community will gain little sympathy from me. Explicitly excluding oneself from membership in a community through self imposed exclusivity, then arguing the loss to the community when leaving, does not make much sense. I know that this is an extreme characterization, but it sounds like a few players were actually approaching this point. Thank you, Funky, for taking the time to detail the complexity of this issue, and extensively explaining the need for a solution that, in it's uncommon broadness, likely flies in the face of your personal preference. It seems clear from some comments that action was warranted. I'm reminded of Justice Potter Stewart ruling on the (much more contentious) threshold test for "obscenity". Specifically, his definition included the famous "I know it when I see it": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_itAnd, a bit of the "longer story": legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/obscenityI have absolutely no problem with having any blacklisting conflict judged as is now outlined by the new rules. Though broad, I have zero concern that innocent, reasonably intentioned players will be unjustly sanctioned. If elegant ways are found to narrow the scope of the rule, so much the better.
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Post by Lee on Mar 26, 2014 23:48:38 GMT
Is there any point in allowing this thread to continue? I feel as though any further "discussion" (if we can even still call it that) at this point is only going to serve to exacerbate the situation and lead to a greater deal of discontent. Is it at all possible for us to either lock or delete most of this thread (except for the original rule) so that we can continue to discuss this rule further in the DM forums in order to arrive at something that's a bit more fine-tuned? It doesn't seem to my mind that anything productive is currently happening in this thread. I think it has been productive and has helped clear up a lot of the lies that have been spread since the beginning. To any of my friends still playing, bye, I had a fun time here and I hope the server evolves and grows, but I am afraid I no longer wish to be a part of it. You are one of the players I enjoyed playing with. It's sad that you decided to leave.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 27, 2014 3:00:15 GMT
Not anymore. Team members are not allowed to exclude players from their parties, or to participate in parties that practice such behavior.. You're charged with a higher standard of behavior, one based on the good of the server, not your own personal enjoyment. Even were that not the case, advocating for such a practice would demonstrate poor enough judgment for me to reach the same conclusion. Funky I broke no rules of your DM handbook, yet you let certain DMs/Admins abuse dm_port abilities, and even go around spawning crazy amounts of BURs in oinos for years without even removing them until yours truly reports it to you despite a number of DMs refusing to come forward about the issue. So much for Sheinja's core pillar of "Respect:" Blacklisting by DMs has been disallowed since Ssithraks was the highest level area on the server. As for the rest of this idiot rant concerning Werehound, I didn't allow anything. Admittedly I was pretty busy at the time it was going on, and Werehound was handling most of the updating, so I didn't have my ear to the ground as closely as I could have, and I tend to give DMs the benefit of the doubt, until they demonstrate they no longer deserve it. Which, of course, is why you were allowed to stick around for so long after a certain screenshot was posted. Hearing you admit it yourself, and even advocate it in this thread, was the proverbial last straw. It's pretty ironic that you would point to that as some kind of bias in favor of Werehound, when your situations were handled so similarly. Really, you could take a page from Werehound's book. He at least manned up and owned what he did. In any event, I see you deleted your account. I guess that means that invitation to ban you if it helped the server was all hot air too, since I didn't even go that far. Imagine my surprise. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 27, 2014 3:11:38 GMT
Wiped a bunch of useless posts. Future posters, please adhere to the request in the OP for constructive suggestions for the rule. I'll be revising it now to include the suggestion that it only extend to guilded players.
Funky
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Post by sabregirl on Mar 27, 2014 3:46:54 GMT
Lets recognize this though, not only was said guild running only with its own players Last time I checked your very own guildmates usually make up a third of our average group. Hasn't been too many of our players of late, at least the few runs I have caught (which is hard if they take place in the middle of the day for me since I'd have to actually login to nwn to see most of them). Some of our members have certainly joined some of the parties in question, but Sheinja is not a guild where I dictate to our members what to do and how to run. I do ask our members to behave courteously to the rest of the server as much as possible. Anytime I was involved in initial party formation, I actively fought against exclusionary tendencies in our guild in the past. And really we're not trying to say every member of X guild is bad and every member of Y and z guild is good. The problem likely stems from one or two actual people that decide they don't want to party with someone and essentially tell the rest of the party to go along with them or else they leave and the party is left without a critical role. And really it can be the rest of the guild containing those people that's also being bullied by someone within their own guild because of that behavior. Though this kind of thing can happen regardless of guild status in any group of closeknit people. It's understandable in some sense as a human reaction. I do understand the emotions of those arguing for that position. However the behavior is fairly clearly damaging to the server since anyone a small group of people decides to exclude becomes effectively blocked from many endgame runs. You can say "form your own run" but it can be difficult to find enough players, and more importantly, the right classes that are not under the sway of those blacklisting to run with - simply because the server is small. As I think we would enforce the blacklisting rule, I'm certain it wouldn't be "you always have to party with everyone that shows up", instead it would be do you have a pattern of denying "X Player" entry to your runs, if so then there may be consequences. If you want to run the occasional guild only run I don't necessarily see a problem with that, but it shouldn't be every run, you should be part of the community. I don't think this would impinge too much on freedom of association, which I do think is a good thing and I understand the points that have been raised. It is just difficult to balance in a server population this small. Based on the posts here it seems like a lot of the problems are based on misunderstanding and unwillingness to communicate by those involved. If we could simply be better communicators in the future, I think any real impact of this rule could be avoided. -S
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Post by bazukar on Mar 27, 2014 4:25:31 GMT
The problem with enforcing this rule is that there are some people I will not run with. Period. Certain players have proven their asshattery, drag status, toxicity, bad behavior etc time and time again, and I am over it. I refuse to spend my leisure time dealing with them rather than having fun with my friends, or meeting new people. I will leave when they show up, I will not join a run they are on, whether I need a tag or not, whether I am on a core or not. And I'm pretty sure I am not the only person on this server with those sentiments.
It seems that under this new rule, I am up for disciplinary action for these sentiments and my intent to act on them.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 27, 2014 4:32:06 GMT
The problem with enforcing this rule is that there are some people I will not run with. Period. Certain players have proven their asshattery, drag status, toxicity, bad behavior etc time and time again, and I am over it. I refuse to spend my leisure time dealing with them rather than having fun with my friends, or meeting new people. I will leave when they show up, I will not join a run they are on, whether I need a tag or not, whether I am on a core or not. And I'm pretty sure I am not the only person on this server with those sentiments. It seems that under this new rule, I am up for disciplinary action for these sentiments and my intent to act on them. As I've said repeatedly, I fully understand why people don't like it. You're still failing to address the requirement in the op. What would you do to make it better, while still addressing the problem? I'll give you a short while to revise your post before I just delete it. Funky
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