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Post by condude on May 16, 2014 1:21:36 GMT
The nice thing about heralds is that with a monk splash they can get a reasonable AC, and get insane temporary HPs.
I'd definitely recommend one.
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Post by Twilight Semner on May 16, 2014 2:42:10 GMT
Staffmaster isn't really frail at all... in fact, I find it to be one of the more sturdy melee classes. Bane Knight is really the optimal "caster tank" option, moreso than BFM tank with the new spell additions. The problem with Bane Knight for your particular situation though, Rose, is that you probably don't have a subrace that really suits the class. While it may not be "gear dependent" it is a highly "stat dependent" quasiclass. If it's something that interests you, I would wait until you're able to find a BUR subrace with a good amount of Strength and Charisma - Pharlan is the obvious choice, but other gems include Half-Guardinal (which is just good for so many things), Skaldclan (which is probably just about as good for BK as it is for Warchanter), Undying (which pretty much makes a good anything), Half-Eladrin (though you'd have to be small-sized), Cambion (which unfortunately is just too blamed rare), Half-Cloud Giant (which would be a bit more difficult considering the DEX penalty), and Hound Archon (which has the benefit of being an "any base race" subrace). Unfortunately for UR subrace options, you're pretty much only looking at Baseborn Titan. No idea of course if you were even interested in making a Bane Knight, Rose, in case you were.... There ya go.
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Post by magecat on May 16, 2014 3:03:16 GMT
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Post by fngrenegade on May 16, 2014 9:52:02 GMT
Staffmaster isn't really frail at all... in fact, I find it to be one of the more sturdy melee classes. My first open subrace character that I got over level 10 and that is currently 64 was a staffmaster and I'd have to slightly disagree with you. Yes staffmasters can be sturdy when build with a BUR race, however with an open subrace combined with the fact that they need some saves feats to boost the saves up to 58-60 range by level 60 makes them very feat and statpoint starved to build. At the moment at level 64 without any dex paragon points with +14 gear, I'm sitting at 110 AC and 90% conceal with saves around 58-60, I'm currently searching for a salamander book so I can upgrade my staffy to BUR status. This wouldn't be the best race to upgrade to (Koly) but one I can afford. However this will boost my AC to 123 with 90% conceal and my saves to over 60 just by the extra stats and feats I get (also boosting AB by 2 or 3 points). So yes staffy can be very strudy however thats ALOT harder with a open subrace if you also want to do good damage (There are ofcourse wisdom staffy's that have higher ac but do quite a bit less damage).
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Post by Li'l Rose on May 16, 2014 9:53:48 GMT
Yeah, I had thought of Bane Knight, but I cannot even read the BUR books yet. I'm still stuck at level 52, lol. I am hoping to find the pharlan book though, as it looks like a fun subrace. I have enjoyed paladins as well, but yeah, I would need pharlan for that too.
Thank you very much guys, for all of your help.
I will try the herald of storms, and use fallen angel subrace, with elf as base race. I do enjoy playing elves, and with a monk level, the extra tumble will help too. I will even try it as a caster only, without trying to add melee.
I will probably also try the gnomish inventer, because I am so curious about that one. Though I am not fond of gnomes and their Popeye arms, lol.
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Post by desocupado on May 16, 2014 10:11:14 GMT
Staffmaster isn't really frail at all... in fact, I find it to be one of the more sturdy melee classes. My first open subrace character that I got over level 10 and that is currently 64 was a staffmaster and I'd have to slightly disagree with you. Yes staffmasters can be sturdy when build with a BUR race, however with an open subrace combined with the fact that they need some saves feats to boost the saves up to 58-60 range by level 60 makes them very feat and statpoint starved to build. At the moment at level 64 without any dex paragon points with +14 gear, I'm sitting at 110 AC and 90% conceal with saves around 58-60, I'm currently searching for a salamander book so I can upgrade my staffy to BUR status. This wouldn't be the best race to upgrade to (Koly) but one I can afford. However this will boost my AC to 123 with 90% conceal and my saves to over 60 just by the extra stats and feats I get (also boosting AB by 2 or 3 points). So yes staffy can be very strudy however thats ALOT harder with a open subrace if you also want to do good damage (There are ofcourse wisdom staffy's that have higher ac but do quite a bit less damage). StaffmasterAlways low ac (except with wisdom build, which will still have low ac until monk level kicks in) and low damage immunity. The armor feels good because with 90% conceal Hell's enemies always have .90^2 = 81% to hit you The damage is the greatest addition tough. QuasiclassesBane knight (Blackhand) has premonition, always armor and shield. Just a Charisma Paladin or a Dwarfdefender can be more sturdy. A dexterity Life Threader give some tools to avoid frustration in pre-LL (always-hit exotic damage, passable melee buffs, good ac with dex + shield ac).
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Post by chirality on May 16, 2014 12:49:16 GMT
Bane Knight is really the optimal "caster tank" option You're far too nice; don't give the idea that any "caster tank" is optimal for any new player. BFM tank is in fact the easiest to "pull off" but then they're ugly, boring/lame, over-emphasized as "sturdy" vs anything else, and really not any more well-oriented for new players than any other tank (despite "common wisdom" to the contrary, I honestly don't see the appeal). Out of all these (BK, BFM, staffy), actually wise staff is the most legit option imho (in terms of gear independent, nub friendly). The notion of BK being sturdy and/or gear independent is a bit much; this has been broken down in the past in some BK thread or other but basically the visualization of them having all these sweet buffs that ameliorates "nub tank" issues is just misleading and rarely accurate (at least, the claim is rarely applied accurately and honestly). As Semner points out, BK is really a non-option for a nub first and foremost due to extreme MAD; 2nd of all, in order to truly take advantage of those buffs you need some lame gear tricks (like broken sequencer), metamagic feats, and really Premo is not that great...it's just not. I see some players suggest BK in the past after only playing one in first dozen/couple dozen levels of the game, which is where any toon, no matter how suck, could succeed and prosper. Once you start getting into "tanks need actually be legit and standup vs hard mobs" a nub BK (nub = nub gear, nub demi count, nub subrace) is at a huge disadvantage vs other self-sufficient self-buffing tanks that have enjoy far easier mechanics for utilizing those buffs (case in point, staffy). It's funny to me that a class with mediocre premo and mediocre everything else gets lauded as sturdy and nub-friendly while a staffy shines so much more with uber conceal AND the same avg premo, and completely sidestepping BK's grotesque building requirements. Lacking crit imm on a conceal-less, dex-less Str tank without much else to bring to the table (meh dmg, meh spells, meh that's why no one plays them) is absolutely a worthless toon for nubs imho, and that's precisely what a nub BK gets. Compared to other "starter" tank classes which have no problem qualifying for crit imm or other serious defensive benefits, and which will should easily outperform the similarly-geared/raced/demi'd BK in damage and useful offense, the BK is probably the absolute worst choice for a new player toon. Wise staff is a great pre-hells newbie toon due to high-ish AC, staffy conceal, great big ele dmg packets which must be swapped around nearly mob-by-mob basis in many LLs such as desert/DB where nonstaffy solo/buffless tanks have an extreme difficulty efficiently dishing out large amounts of appropriate ele type 3-4x per spawn. Lacking dex, kd will still rape, but honestly the LL runs where dex check is a problem, are truly designed for 55-60 toons initially anyway, and after all no amount of power creep has suddenly offer +20 to offstat for nub tanks. due to a lot of annoying inflicts and onhits, i'd also take evasion tank over soak/crit imm tank for a nub anyway (and especial in many LL runs where getting hit less is more favorable to me then trying to soak hits). Unfortunately, suggesting new player to build any kind of tank is fail. Don't make a tank, or a PM, or anything with a rapier. Make a breadwinner that can help you evolve to being able to pull off some of those weird tank concepts. Breadwinner = core class that can fill spot and help other nub vets play their bad tanks (you get to learn, feel important/good, and then in solo offtime can still generate efficient income for yourself, unlike having a handicapped tank that is best left on the bench 90% of the time)
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Post by chainlink on May 16, 2014 12:54:30 GMT
Staffmaster isn't really frail at all... in fact, I find it to be one of the more sturdy melee classes. Bane Knight is really the optimal "caster tank" option, moreso than BFM tank with the new spell additions. The problem with Bane Knight for your particular situation though, Rose, is that you probably don't have a subrace that really suits the class. While it may not be "gear dependent" it is a highly "stat dependent" quasiclass. If it's something that interests you, I would wait until you're able to find a BUR subrace with a good amount of Strength and Charisma - Pharlan is the obvious choice, but other gems include Half-Guardinal (which is just good for so many things), Skaldclan (which is probably just about as good for BK as it is for Warchanter), Undying (which pretty much makes a good anything), Half-Eladrin (though you'd have to be small-sized), Cambion (which unfortunately is just too blamed rare), Half-Cloud Giant (which would be a bit more difficult considering the DEX penalty), and Hound Archon (which has the benefit of being an "any base race" subrace). Unfortunately for UR subrace options, you're pretty much only looking at Baseborn Titan. No idea of course if you were even interested in making a Bane Knight, Rose, in case you were.... There ya go. Fallen Angel makes an acceptable BK as you get Cha to help Sorc spells and Wis to get BG spells, with no negative ability points you're free to spend the others where you want and free innate spell resistance and sandwalking don't hurt either. Oh and really, really don't make a GI unless you never want to get invited to LL runs other than for everybody else to laugh at how useless and ineffective you are.
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Post by Twilight Semner on May 16, 2014 14:52:09 GMT
Alright Bale, now you've managed to coerce me into making an open subrace BK build. How dare you.
But yeah, you're right that it's not at all a quasi that's friendly to new players.
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Post by Torin on May 16, 2014 15:10:49 GMT
Alright Bale, now you've managed to coerce me into making an open subrace BK build. How dare you. But yeah, you're right that it's not at all a quasi that's friendly to new players. That cool! My build in the open subrace board is quite old. Go ahead!
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Post by amano666 on May 16, 2014 15:14:38 GMT
Shifter has not been mentioned but might fit the bill nicely and Fallen Angel has some nice stats for shifter actually if taking points in Animal empathy (cha).
Can have a look at the shifter builds forum and go with something tanky rather than ability magey if you like fightan, or experiment a bit with feats and ranger levels etc in the test chamber till you come up with something unique and able to both cast and tank.
Shifters have a lot of cool looking forms and playing them well often has a lot to do with learning positioning, and the weaknesses of enemies. Which can go a long way in improving all aspects of play on HG.
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Post by tomaan on May 16, 2014 16:10:41 GMT
Shifter has not been mentioned but might fit the bill nicely and Fallen Angel has some nice stats for shifter actually if taking points in Animal empathy (cha). Can have a look at the shifter builds forum and go with something tanky rather than ability magey if you like fightan, or experiment a bit with feats and ranger levels etc in the test chamber till you come up with something unique and able to both cast and tank. Shifters have a lot of cool looking forms and playing them well often has a lot to do with learning positioning, and the weaknesses of enemies. Which can go a long way in improving all aspects of play on HG. I'm surprised nobody's mention shifter yet. Very gear independent and yet very effective. Learning curve can be a bit steep, but not much more than any regular caster. Here's the original ability mage: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/15741Built using a BUR (Anarch) but includes a must-read players' guide for all first-time shifters. Here's the lizardfolk (open) version: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/9412/abilitymage-lizardman-edition-shif-ranYou can also use Thri-Kreen, an easy-to-obtain secret subby. Don't worry about the form epodes....wildshape+1 will still make you a very effective shifter build
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Post by desocupado on May 16, 2014 17:03:43 GMT
Out of all these (BK, BFM, staffy), actually wise staff is the most legit option imho (in terms of gear independent, nub friendly). The notion of BK being sturdy and/or gear independent is a bit much; this has been broken down in the past in some BK thread or other but basically the visualization of them having all these sweet buffs that ameliorates "nub tank" issues is just misleading and rarely accurate (at least, the claim is rarely applied accurately and honestly). As Semner points out, BK is really a non-option for a nub first and foremost due to extreme MAD; 2nd of all, in order to truly take advantage of those buffs you need some lame gear tricks (like broken sequencer), metamagic feats, and really Premo is not that great...it's just not. I see some players suggest BK in the past after only playing one in first dozen/couple dozen levels of the game, which is where any toon, no matter how suck, could succeed and prosper. Once you start getting into "tanks need actually be legit and standup vs hard mobs" a nub BK (nub = nub gear, nub demi count, nub subrace) is at a huge disadvantage vs other self-sufficient self-buffing tanks that have enjoy far easier mechanics for utilizing those buffs (case in point, staffy). It's funny to me that a class with mediocre premo and mediocre everything else gets lauded as sturdy and nub-friendly while a staffy shines so much more with uber conceal AND the same avg premo, and completely sidestepping BK's grotesque building requirements. Lacking crit imm on a conceal-less, dex-less Str tank without much else to bring to the table (meh dmg, meh spells, meh that's why no one plays them) is absolutely a worthless toon for nubs imho, and that's precisely what a nub BK gets. Compared to other "starter" tank classes which have no problem qualifying for crit imm or other serious defensive benefits, and which will should easily outperform the similarly-geared/raced/demi'd BK in damage and useful offense, the BK is probably the absolute worst choice for a new player toon. Wise staff is a great pre-hells newbie toon due to high-ish AC, staffy conceal, great big ele dmg packets which must be swapped around nearly mob-by-mob basis in many LLs such as desert/DB where nonstaffy solo/buffless tanks have an extreme difficulty efficiently dishing out large amounts of appropriate ele type 3-4x per spawn. Lacking dex, kd will still rape, but honestly the LL runs where dex check is a problem, are truly designed for 55-60 toons initially anyway, and after all no amount of power creep has suddenly offer +20 to offstat for nub tanks. due to a lot of annoying inflicts and onhits, i'd also take evasion tank over soak/crit imm tank for a nub anyway (and especial in many LL runs where getting hit less is more favorable to me then trying to soak hits). Unfortunately, suggesting new player to build any kind of tank is fail. Don't make a tank, or a PM, or anything with a rapier. Make a breadwinner that can help you evolve to being able to pull off some of those weird tank concepts. Breadwinner = core class that can fill spot and help other nub vets play their bad tanks (you get to learn, feel important/good, and then in solo offtime can still generate efficient income for yourself, unlike having a handicapped tank that is best left on the bench 90% of the time) BK - Tenser for Natural AC+20 & 2 extra attacks - Mage armor for armor AC+20 with abjuration (or divination for premonition 60/+16) - Armor + shild = reasonable AC - GMW-Flame/Elec/Corrupt/Freeze weapon/Keen - Elemental Resistance spell While staff gets decent conceal at 40+ it's defense are lousy before that. Still I'd suggest any Cleric based character as well (except turner or slinger). Shifter has not been mentioned but might fit the bill nicely and Fallen Angel has some nice stats for shifter actually if taking points in Animal empathy (cha). Can have a look at the shifter builds forum and go with something tanky rather than ability magey if you like fightan, or experiment a bit with feats and ranger levels etc in the test chamber till you come up with something unique and able to both cast and tank. Shifters have a lot of cool looking forms and playing them well often has a lot to do with learning positioning, and the weaknesses of enemies. Which can go a long way in improving all aspects of play on HG. I'm surprised nobody's mention shifter yet. Very gear independent and yet very effective. Learning curve can be a bit steep, but not much more than any regular caster. Here's the original ability mage: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/15741Built using a BUR (Anarch) but includes a must-read players' guide for all first-time shifters. Here's the lizardfolk (open) version: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/thread/9412/abilitymage-lizardman-edition-shif-ranYou can also use Thri-Kreen, an easy-to-obtain secret subby. Don't worry about the form epodes....wildshape+1 will still make you a very effective shifter build Shifters are mediocre 1-40 (very little DC) and AC is lousy until level 55
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Post by chirality on May 16, 2014 20:21:09 GMT
BK - Tenser for Natural AC+20 & 2 extra attacks - Mage armor for armor AC+20 with abjuration (or divination for premonition 60/+16) - Armor + shild = reasonable AC - GMW-Flame/Elec/Corrupt/Freeze weapon/Keen - Elemental Resistance spell Sure, tenser is nice. Real nice. Too bad BK doesn't receive some kind of improved duration mechanic for it like staffy. Mage armor also is nice (real nice) but: on the one hand these numbers aren't attained till level 60, yet on the other hand we're comparing BK vs other classes as evolving from scratch by a new player. First thought reading those BK benefits is, oh wow mage armor +20 ac, hmm this BK quasi gets +20 nat from tenser, +20 deflect from mage armor, that sounds awesome, but honestly we're discussing 'starter toon', and while you point out staffy conceal is lackluster pre-LL, what about needing CL60 for both those quoted numbers BK buffs (and gearing BK slots is not fun without later-game gear). Speaking of which, another BK benefit is access to crit imm (and again, not till late in career), but DW lacks full CL, adding another issue of slots/buff maintenance, and as far as the initially-attractive array of weapon buffs, it looks a lot less cool when you consider the cold and div are at subpar +dice (and duration, noticeable with div) from 1/2 CL of a real pally or cleric, so in most party the cold will be useless anyway. That said it's still a huge boon to solo or small party lacking some buffer, and the div is nice, but overall it's nowhere comparable to the self-sufficiency and true "uniquely strong buff" advantage of a staffy or BFM with blkstaff/7 dice fw. Like all has been stated before, it's just too much of a generalist niche, and the class mechanics/numbers result in too much of a generalized "quantity over quality" dynamic, and HG is not a module in which generalists excel.
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Post by Li'l Rose on May 16, 2014 23:44:23 GMT
Well, when I make a character, I want something that I can enjoy for all levels. I do not care much for playing something that will be useless or not very fun until I reach a certain level, since it usually takes me forever to reach high levels anyways. I enjoy playing low levels as much as playing high levels, and I like trying something new. However if something does not go well, then I would try something else. I do not think I would make it to level 60 unless it was something I would enjoy all the way there.
I always thought that a fighter "tank" build was considered a core class. Most servers would recommend trying a tank type build to start, though I usually would start with a bard anyways. I do have a bard, but I am not sure how to build her. I have always made my bards as dex dual weilders, with bard spells for buffs and party support. However bards here are much different, so I have been trying other builds for now, until I learn the server more.
I have not played shifters much, so I am not very good with them. On most servers, they are pretty much useless, with powers that only work if the creatures are not immune, and they roll a 1. I imagine shifters are better here, since a lot of people play them. I do have thri-kreen subrace, but not sure I would enjoy playing a bug.
If the gnome inventers are that useless, then why do they not make them better? I still want to try one, and see how they do. I am too curious, lol. However, if they are too much trouble to play, then I will try something else.
I do not know anything about what the hells are like, but I remember doing the dulv run with a large party. The run took about 20 minutes, and the boss was dead before I even reached the final room, lol. I'm pretty sure I spent more time trying to attack a creature before the mages killed them, lol. It was a lot of fun though.
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