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Post by Yojimbo on Jun 4, 2014 14:05:26 GMT
40 Paladin levels is required for regenerating smites IIRC and to maximize what you can turn you want to splash a level of Cleric.
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Post by chirality on Jun 4, 2014 18:30:04 GMT
That's correct.
Interestingly, for a pure bg/pal, their smite good also gets recharged as well (10 levels of smite dmg wee...)
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Post by condude on Jun 6, 2014 4:36:35 GMT
That's correct. Interestingly, for a pure bg/pal, their smite good also gets recharged as well (10 levels of smite dmg wee...) Is smite good useful anywhere except Elysium? I have a lash who never uses it.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Jun 6, 2014 5:02:56 GMT
Rona, but it really would be better if Smite Good was able to target all alignments like BG Greater Smite. Of course, I imagine that would take a great deal of work, if it was even possible at all.
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Post by chirality on Jun 6, 2014 13:25:29 GMT
Actually, I mistyped and totally ruined the whole point of the post. It's not interesting at all that smite good gets recharged.
I meant to say smite evil--smite evil is still useable by BGs (albeit entirely ineffectively, obviously), and it even recharges (just like smite good) for a pure bg. Clearly not "intended" but then it also doesn't really do much (although I still use it sometimes for fun, +10 dmg gogo!, and that recharge is noticeably quick enough to use a LOT).
Smite good is pretty useless except for those 3? runs (Rona, Ely, Hades) in which good-aligned mobs may be found, but at least it doesn't require some costly build decision for the extra option to be "unique" in those runs, such as the case with turning good aligned mobs.
However, it's still pretty weak, especially when compared to how good endlessly recharging full-power paladin smite is (nigh-universal in application).
Anyway I didn't mean to totally derail, sorry.
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Post by eternal on Jun 6, 2014 13:31:37 GMT
40 Paladin levels is required for regenerating smites IIRC and to maximize what you can turn you want to splash a level of Cleric. No argument there of course, I was just pointing out that a Paladin turner will use one of their smite good uses to get rid of the 2 level penalty on their turns, so they are at least turning at their full level, like a cleric, when the smites regenerate they can do this more often. They of course do not have all of the debuff spells and the easy to get domains that a cleric receives. Although they can still obtain Planar Turning and the other domains, they must use their feats to do so, while a cleric receives two free.
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Post by desocupado on Jun 6, 2014 16:15:25 GMT
Keep in mind a turner uses much more than 1 turn undead per minute (you need to spend at least 2 to attempt to destroy). That means you WILL have less turning power. Which mean you WON'T be able to tempt to turn/destroy monsters as often as a true turner. In fact you'll be running with 2 less "Turning Levels" nearly all the time
Example:
A Pitfiend has TR resistance of 84. With good domain you roll 58 + 20 +0 (or +2 with a smite evil) + 1d8. So... that gives: 50% chance to stun with smite evil 25% chance to stun without smite evil 0% chance to attempt to destroy
Now a Osyluth has 73 TR With good domain you roll 58 + 20 +0 (or 2 with a smite evil) + 1d8. So... that gives: 100% chance to stun with/without smite 75% chance to attempt to destroy with Smite evil 50% chance to attempt to destroy with Smite evil
Destroy also has the dc based on charisma (and the missing saving throw debuffs from cleric isn't offset by the cha +4 at LL)
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Post by Torin on Jun 6, 2014 19:37:45 GMT
Interesting discussion so far. Thanks a lot!
Now it looks like (for me) that going pure Paladin is the way to go on a Paladin Turner. Paladins also get +4 Cha in LL. With the feat Extra smiting 3 upper turns are possible. Unfortunately, Paladins don't have Great Charisma or Wisdom on their list of epic class bonus feats.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Jun 6, 2014 19:44:54 GMT
Missing saving throw debuffs being.... battletide? Paladins get full CL prayer. So it would seem to me that +4 CHA does help considerably.
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Post by Torin on Jun 6, 2014 20:48:19 GMT
Noob question: How to calculate the Turner level of a turner? What does the Charisma bonus do?
Example: What would a pure Paladin at level 60 with a charisma bonus of +27 get?
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Post by desocupado on Jun 6, 2014 21:35:27 GMT
Missing saving throw debuffs being.... battletide? Paladins get full CL prayer. So it would seem to me that +4 CHA does help considerably. Battletide is a lot of bonus. -5 to all saves if CL 60 And Greater restoration is worth 1-4 DC as well. Also, DC is nerfed if TL is < 60 (which happens very often) Noob question: How to calculate the Turner level of a turner? What does the Charisma bonus do? Example: What would a pure Paladin at level 60 with a charisma bonus of +27 get? TL = Cleric level (including LL) + BG (lvl -2) + Paladin (lvl-2) Charisma defines DC, when attempting to destruct, or attempt to break the turn - i.e. lose the paralysis. "A turner's destruction DC is equal to 10 + (Turner levels / 4) + (Cha modifier) + (2 within Medium radius or 1 within Huge radius). " By the way, Mind Fog helps. This also means the TL 58 (due paladin and smite evil being spent) thus a non cleric have -1 dc nearly all the time. Turning goes like this. A - You use it B - Attempt to turn not turned enemies & attempt to destroy already turned enemies. --- If damaged turned unit takes damage, they attempt, once per round, to break turn with the DC above Interesting discussion so far. Thanks a lot! Now it looks like (for me) that going pure Paladin is the way to go on a Paladin Turner. Paladins also get +4 Cha in LL. With the feat Extra smiting 3 upper turns are possible. Unfortunately, Paladins don't have Great Charisma or Wisdom on their list of epic class bonus feats. Splashing Cleric gives you 2 free domains, and cost no turning power. The rechargeable smite evil is pretty laughable if you intend to use turn undead as your primary attack (it's common to use 3-5 turns per enemy pack - more if you face a tough monster like a PF). You still loses 2 TP - i.e. a lot of turning efficiency. - think of it as using blind fight (listen 60) instead of listen skill (120) for the purposes of concealment piercing. Also you can't afford to maximize Greater smiting, and charisma, and qualifying for planar turning (Wisdom 25). Maximizing Charisma and Greater smite while keeping some tank-ability is a better use of paladin's features, in my opinion. (stun turning might be more interesting for BG, due the good targets)
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