Deso's Caster Cleric - Cleric 39 Monk 1

[desocupado]

Having gotten a Cleric CL ego, i eagerly looked for a build to use it. Seeing as no one went with Drow Noble instead of Half-Celectial, I choose to go that route.
To do so, we must compare the two subraces:

Advantages against Half-Celestial:

• 55 more skill points than a Human Half-Celestial. (due int+4)
  
• Being an elf based subby means you get able learner. (to make use of those skill points)
  
• Natural Spell Resistance score of LVL+5. Might improve with a pandect, tough the spell resistance spell make this pointless.

Disadvantages against Half-Celestial:

• No Charisma bonus makes splashing paladin illogical (it's also out of flavor due the prevalency of necromancy school spell Heartbane)
  
• Being an elf based subby means 2 less Constitution and one less feat compared to a human build.

Given I'm wouldn't splash Paladin, due wanting CL 59 and to use necromancy school, I came up with 2 somewhat similar builds, with some help of several people on another thread.


---Version 1 - Robe Evil Cleric with Gmw+15 and Greater ruin

• Good skills: Concentration, Discipline, Parry, Heal, Spellcraft and Tumble (base 63 where needed)
  
• Decent all around saves (Legendary Valor and Evasion)
  
• PSF Necromancy Evocation and Enchantment and PSK Nec ESF Divination*
  
• Maximum Wisdom, CL 60 (with ego)
• Weak Gate (ESF Divination) but can be improved by ditching G.Ruin
• No Abjuration focus
  

----Stats at 60:
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 14+4
Wis 18+6 +20/lv +10/feat +2/arty (+4/demi +2/paragon later)
Cha 8

---Saves: with +12 stats at 60/ with +16, double demi and level 80
Fortitude: 60 /69
Reflex: 54/63* (+4 if you pick epic reflexes)
Will: 75/84

---Skills (2 +4/int +1/paragon)
Disciple 43+20*3 (Helps a lot in abyss and some other areas)
Tumble 43+ (17*3)
Parry 63
Concentration 63
Spell craft 50*  (can be replaced with craft armor if you skip G, Ruin)
Heal 50+

---Feat choices // (Drow Noble get GSF: Div for free)
--Pre-epic:
Dauntless (R/F +1)
SF Evocation
GSF Evocation
SF Necromancy
GSF Necromancy
SF Enchantment
GSF Enchantment

--Epic (7+6)
ESF Divination
ESF Enchantment
ESF Evocation
ESF Necromancy
Great Wisdom 1-9

--Legendary (7) ***Read spell pen Tome
Leg Spell Pen
LSF Necromancy
LSF Enchantment
LSF Evocation
Extend Spell
Greater Ruin* (can be replaced with epic reflexes or LSF Divination)
Legendary Valor

--Paragon (6)
PSF Enchantment
Paragon Spell Penetration
PSF Necromancy
PSK Necromancy
PSF Evocation
Great Wisdom 10 (grab at the time you'd get the last Wisdom point from paragon levels)

10 - base
16 - natural (Tia amulet)
0+17 - armor modifer (Robe + Guird)
7-12 - dex modifier
28-33 - wis modifier
17 - deflection
20 - dodge + haste
12 - tumble (maxed with able learner)
Total: 127-138
Add 3 if an Deflection+20 Artifact
add 2 if you got craft armor instead of spellcraft

--Domains (2 - I prefer Protection and Plant)
Protection (Energy Buffer and Minor Globe of invulnerability help on gear selection, making it easier to wear gear with spell slots)
Plant (I like "Bar Skin" for summons and Creeping doom for bosses/ tough enemies)
Evil - The most attractive spell (Enervation) can be cast by most arcanes , so why bother?
War - CL 60 AoV is nice, no one can deny that
Fire - Alternative to Protection, provides Wall of "stone" instead of the Globe.

[desocupado]

---Version 2 Heavy armor + Shield user with Magic Vestment

• Good skills: Concentration, Discipline, Parry, Heal Craft Armor and Tumble (base 63 where needed)
• Below average saves (but higher than most clerics)
• PSF/PSK Necromancy Divination / PSF Evoc
• ESF Enchantment Abjuration (Make sure to have stolen some CL if using DC spells)
  
• Ability to wear Heavy armor (like mandate of heavens) for high immunities on top of Gate's Soak for 132+ AC. (Great damage immunity)
  
• Just Great Wisdom VIII (-1 dc)

---Feat choices // (Drow Noble get GSF: Div for free)
-Pre-epic:
Extend Spell
SF Evocation
GSF Evocation
SF Necromancy
GSF Necromancy
SF Enchantment
GSF Enchantment

--Epic (7+6)
ESF Divination
ESF Enchantment
ESF Evocation
ESF Necromancy
SF Abjuration
GSF Abjuration
ESF Abjuration
Great Wisdom 1-6

--Legendary (7) ***Read spell pen Tome
Leg Spell Pen
LSF Necromancy
LSF Divination
LSF Evocation
Epic Reflexes
Great Wisdom 7-8

--Paragon (6)
Paragon Spell Penetration
PSF Necromancy
PSK Necromancy
PSF Divination
PSK Divination
PSF Evocation

---Saves (with +12 stats at 60)
Fortitude: 54 (63 - with +16, double demi and level 80)
Reflex: 52 (61 - as above)
Will: 75 (84 - as above)


---Skills (2 +4/int +1/paragon)
Disciple 43+20*3 (Helps a lot in abyss and some other areas)
Tumble 43+ (17*3)
Heal 54
Parry 63
Concentration 63
CA 60 // from Spellcraft


New AC
10 - base
16 - natural (Tia amulet)
8+20 - armor modifier (Mandate of Heaven +Magic vestment + Guird) //Any other heavy plate should be usable
3 - dex modifier (Heavy armor)
17 - deflection
20 - dodge + haste
12 - tumble (maxed with able learner)
3+20 - shield modifier (Tower Shield +Magic vestment + Guird)
2-3 Craft Armor
Total: 131-132
Add 3 if you have a Deflection+20 Artifact

Helm: Gaze into the Abyss- amnesia immunity and slots
Boots: Corruption of the Spirit - Cleric Slots + ESF: Discipline
Armor: Mandate of Heaven - High Physical and Divine immunity
Ring: Crest of Vile Darkness - Asmodeus Ring with mord, breach and Exotic immunity

[chirality]

The 1st section: It looks like you decided that unless you splash pally, drow noble is superior to hc?

My own analysis would differ quite a bit. I'm not posting this to argue but just as food for thought.

1. What's the value in "55 extra skill points"? Or Able Learner for that matter?

Well, more skill points is nice, but human H-C can afford to max all required skills. Ironically, the advantage of 55 more skillpoints is being totally wasted in your case, for Ruin. If you didn't take that you'd have 55 more skillpoints Also, the plate DN gets heal + CA, but plate hc would get CA + racial heal bonus anyway.

Able Learner is a really fun mechanic but the only application you utilize is Tumble, which admittedly is nice for more AC, but considering that cookiecutter hc plate build doesn't miss tumble AC anyway, I see this more of a "tradeoff" than an "advantage".

I place very low importance on either of these for the builds you've brainstormed (aka same build as you'd make with hc); the only instance I really see AL as an advantage for such a ploder is if you're splashing something useful/productive like rog.

2. The lost feat is crucial in my opinion. Generally I see people end up doing the default maxed schools but ending up with odd spare feats which get tossed into something like Ruin. If you just play hc you can get all you need schoolwise with no loose ends to tie up. Regardless, Ruin is terrible for an evil ploder and if you're only taking it due lack of other options, it's red flag to go back and start over.

If it's just a stock evo/nec/div/abj/ench build, why even consider DN if you have hc unless for aesthetics or flavor (in which case what's point of a minmax comparison)? Again not trying to troll just throwing it out there.

3. Just to point out for the robe one you are using AL tumble as advantage but then you miss CA due putting those crucial pts in Splc for ruin. I understand one came before the other but I'm trying to say, if you are sacrificing some areas to get higher AC, but then sacrifice higher AC for something else...? Just go all out if you want the AC so bad.

As above, the DN advantages look basically more like a tradeoff here. I know hc is boring and overdone but for better or worse, it's just really good at being an evil ploder with abj/ench, whereas DN is really good at being a weirdo Illus/Conj ploder. Also really good at being a looter, which would overall have far more utility/value and bring far more coolpoints to a deep run than what's basically "DN that's similar but just not quite as good as" a standard hc build.

4. Even argument for DN monk/robe notwithstanding, the DN plate build are simply inferior to hc plate, and there's no way to soften that.

[desocupado]

To clear up. I played build 1 until demix2 - then i reinced into build 2. the discussion was here
----


Well, able learner is used for both discipline and tumble on both builds. Add in ESF Discipline boots, and you won't be slagged/disarmed/kd for nearly all discipline checks.
It also helps me to stay close to enemies, thus keeping them in my battletide. That was also the purpose of the saving throw feats, improve tanking.


Right now i'm using build 2, so I ditched ruin. I agree it's not a great feat, but has it's uses when a ridiculous SR random comes up (or is too far away to lose SR), but it's not worth a Erradicate (I assume this is "ER"). Also, having 3 "erradicate-like spells is better than just 1"

About 3 - one can swap Greater ruin and spell casting for Epic reflexes and Craft armor. - added

about 4 - you didn't provide any argument for your position. I paid 1 feat (human bonus) to get both tumble (ac) and discipline to 63 - slagging was a major turn-off for a half-celestial plate build (for me).
Getting such skill distribution as human half celestial would cost 4 feats (bullheaded, blooded, LSa tumble and LSA discipline), and an elf half celestial would lack nearly 126 to maximize both.
i.e. Cha+4, 1 skill & feat < Int+4 & able learner, if you employ the skill points

[chirality]

I hadn't seen any comment on that thread in over 2 yrs, so had no idea that this was just the same exact build as where that discussion ended 2 yrs ago. I thought it was just a new build thread with version 1 and 2 asking/discussing which to choose. I see now this is posting your 2 builds. So nevermind, sorry. Good job, thanks for sharing.

[desocupado]

Well, I updated the build 1 with the removal of greater ruin, so it was useful feedback.

The whole discussion in the old thread was about each person valuing something above something else. I valued defenses, what's reflected on the 2 builds.