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Post by desocupado on Feb 22, 2015 0:18:19 GMT
(deleted the old fist and staff monks - medium sized and small sized builds bellow)
Human - Medium (staff monks aren't a thing anymore) Monk 30 Fighter 5 HS 5 (go monk 16 fighter 4 to get bab 16)
Race: Human Subrace: Zenythri Artifact: Constitution (There are options now)
Stats at 60: Str 16+4/sub (+20/level) +6/feats Dex 14+4/sub +2/feat Con 10 +2/arty Int 14 Wis 14+4/sub Cha 08
Skills (all 63, increase them all always): Concentration 30-ish Craft Armor Craft weapon Discipline Listen Tumble Persuade UMD // Who knows?
Skills: discipline 4 ranks, lore 6 ranks, persuade 8 ranks, search 4 ranks
---Saves: (add +35 from epic/leg and magic bonus) Fort 14 + 7 = 21 +4 Reflex 11 + 11 = 22 +4 Will 11 + 10 +2 = 21 +4
Feats
7 +3/fighter +1/human 7 +2/monk +2/harper 7 = 28
3 LWS 2 - Great dex 2 2 - saves -- luck of heroes & leg luck 2 - harper Feats: alertness, iron will 5 WF GWF IC ESF LWF 4 Power g. cleave OC DC 2 EP AS 6 Great str +6 1 martial proficiency
---AB at 60 (could use +1--+4) 40/bab +8/feat +24/str +2/CW +20/mag -- 94 +1/+2 - str+14/+16 +1/+2 - demix1/x2 +1 Paragon str+2 +2 PWF +5 PBAB +1 if you manage to keep CW 120
AC 10 - base 17 - natural (+20 strongheart if 40 str and less than 21 RDD levels) 0+15 - armor modifer (armor bonus + base armor type) 11 - dex modifier (may be limited by armor type) 17 - deflection 20 - dodge + haste 12 - tumble (depends on skill level) 2 - armor skin 10 - wisdom (certain classes/armor) 2 - skill modifier 6 - class ac bonus AC 122-142 about 65% concealment
Gnome Version
Monk 30 Fighter 5 HS 5
Race: Gnome Subrace: Zenythri Artifact: Constitution (Too handy for tanking)
Stats at 60: Str 14+4/sub (+20/level) +6/feats Dex 14+4/sub +2/feat Con 12 +2/arty Int 14 Wis 14+4/sub Cha 08
Skills (all 63, except concentration): Concentration 30-40 Craft Armor Craft weapon Discipline Listen Tumble Persuade Parry // nice bonus
Skills: discipline 4 ranks, lore 6 ranks, persuade 8 ranks, search 4 ranks (harper)
---Saves: (add +35 from epic/leg and magic bonus) Fort 15 + 7 = 22 +4 Reflex 11 + 11 = 22 +4 Will 11 + 10 +2 = 21 +4
Feats
7 +3/fighter 7 +2/monk (armor skin and epic prowess) +2/harper (great dex II) 7 = 28
3 LWS 2 - Great dex 2 // harper level epic bonus feat 2 - saves -- luck of heroes & leg luck 2 - harper req: alertness, iron will 5 WF GWF IC ESF LWF 4 Power g. cleave OC DC 2 EP AS // monk level epic bonus feat 6 Great str +6 1 Martial proficiency 1 ESF Persuade // helps
Paragon
PWF PWS Dex check +4 LSF Persuade Open x2
---AB at 60 (could use +1--+4) 41/bab +8/feat +23/str +1/size +2/CW +20/mag --> 95 +1/+2 - str+14/+16 +1/+2 - demix1/x2 +1 Paragon str+2 +2 PWF +5 PBAB +1 if you manage to keep CW 120
AC 10 - base 17 - natural (mayb e more) 0+15 - armor modifer (armor bonus + base armor type) 11 - dex modifier (may be limited by armor type) 17 - deflection 20 - dodge + haste 12 - tumble (depends on skill level) 2 - armor skin 10 - wisdom (certain classes/armor) 2 - skill modifier 6 - class ac bonus 1 - size modifier AC 123-143 about 60-65% concealment[/quote]
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Post by louisvilleslugger on Feb 22, 2015 4:16:34 GMT
I recommend not doing the whirlwind monk, as the stunning fist with the whirlwind is NOT the same as the single target version. It uses the old immunities--mind immunity makes them immune. for example, you can stun fist a cornugon or a lemure, but when you whirlwind stun attack them, they are immune.
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Post by Mister Pin on Feb 22, 2015 8:01:16 GMT
Good idea- old build- Glass cannon. I love the damage this toon does. Freakin awesome! But AC holds you down even with conceal. Have yet to make demi from it. In fact ready for Nessus. Would love to but. . . . . Pin
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Post by desocupado on Feb 22, 2015 9:28:47 GMT
I recommend not doing the whirlwind monk, as the stunning fist with the whirlwind is NOT the same as the single target version. It uses the old immunities--mind immunity makes them immune. for example, you can stun fist a cornugon or a lemure, but when you whirlwind stun attack them, they are immune. I figured that make it 2 different kinds of abilities. The whirlwind would work like mass charm spell., i.e. daze. Anyone knows high levels targets for it?
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Post by bazukar on Feb 23, 2015 10:17:18 GMT
I advise against stunning fist monks, especially pure ones. The utility is incredibly limited and takes away from other stats and feats that could give a monk far more impact as well as better tanking. A fist monk is already at -3 AB because of no craft weapon, and the AB on your first build is hideously low for a bur sub imo. That build, by it's stats, is basically a stunning fist tank. With that ab and amount of attacks it will do really poor damage and have no utility outside the random trash mob you stun....that can be insta killed anyway. Your second build would actually be a better class and stat spread for a fist monk, though once again, the ab is low. With a BUR sub at 60 and DD a fist monk should be sitting at 99ish AB, maybe 98 if you feel the need to pump dex another 2 points.
I also notice you put a heavy weight on wisdom. For a staff monk wisdom is completely and utterly worthless to invest in. Pump DEX. And to be honest, to a lesser extent it's not that good for a fist monk either. While it's true you gain a few points of damage if you get extra WIS on a fist monk, the attack bonus is almost worthless: Both the min and dis gloves have +16 AB on them giving you access to slash and blunt. While the DB piercing gloves do not have +16 it's almost irrelevant. You can get GMW on gloves, and piercing is a mediocre damage type almost everywhere but Elysium and on balors anyway.
I'd advise you to also consider trying to pump AB up a bit in order to be able to use disarm. Not having a swift action to use really takes a chunk out of a tanks possible utility. Disarming pit fiends, malebranches and especially balors in the abyss takes huge amounts of pressure off a group. Even lesser enemies disarmed gives a big margin of error. Or something I've been considering, persuade. Fitting in skill foci for persuade sounds loony, but with one item with persuade and bardsong with skill foci can get you to 127 in many areas. And every caster loves seeing persuade land, heck an AOE mord and persuade is a potential -16 to SR. Not too shabby.
Food for thought.
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Post by desocupado on Feb 23, 2015 11:08:27 GMT
I advise against stunning fist monks, especially pure ones. The utility is incredibly limited and takes away from other stats and feats that could give a monk far more impact as well as better tanking. A fist monk is already at -3 AB because of no craft weapon, and the AB on your first build is hideously low for a bur sub imo. That build, by it's stats, is basically a stunning fist tank. With that ab and amount of attacks it will do really poor damage and have no utility outside the random trash mob you stun....that can be insta killed anyway. Your second build would actually be a better class and stat spread for a fist monk, though once again, the ab is low. With a BUR sub at 60 and DD a fist monk should be sitting at 99ish AB, maybe 98 if you feel the need to pump dex another 2 points. I suppose... yeah, ab ended pretty low for build 1. Probably a no go for it. I also notice you put a heavy weight on wisdom. For a staff monk wisdom is completely and utterly worthless to invest in. Pump DEX. And to be honest, to a lesser extent it's not that good for a fist monk either. While it's true you gain a few points of damage if you get extra WIS on a fist monk, the attack bonus is almost worthless: Both the min and dis gloves have +16 AB on them giving you access to slash and blunt. While the DB piercing gloves do not have +16 it's almost irrelevant. You can get GMW on gloves, and piercing is a mediocre damage type almost everywhere but Elysium and on balors anyway. Well stating with wis 14+4 costs 6 points, and grants +5 ac. (could lose wis for int+2, if there's a good skill - looks at persuade) You'd be surprised on how many enemies pierce is good. Having used manticore as shifter gave me some insight on that. There's also rona, and several hell (kroach, baatorian golems and others) and abyss enemies (on whoever a druid uses fissure). I'd advise you to also consider trying to pump AB up a bit in order to be able to use disarm. Not having a swift action to use really takes a chunk out of a tanks possible utility. Disarming pit fiends, malebranches and especially balors in the abyss takes huge amounts of pressure off a group. Even lesser enemies disarmed gives a big margin of error. Or something I've been considering, persuade. Fitting in skill foci for persuade sounds loony, but with one item with persuade and bardsong with skill foci can get you to 127 in many areas. And every caster loves seeing persuade land, heck an AOE mord and persuade is a potential -16 to SR. Not too shabby. Food for thought. Monk base BAB is a bit on low side to disarm in my opinion, I'd rather have dex+8 than str+8, if I'm already at ab 95 (60/x0/+12 gear). Utility... Maybe persuade or called shot.
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Post by tomaan on Feb 23, 2015 15:07:57 GMT
I also notice you put a heavy weight on wisdom. For a staff monk wisdom is completely and utterly worthless to invest in. Pump DEX. And to be honest, to a lesser extent it's not that good for a fist monk either. While it's true you gain a few points of damage if you get extra WIS on a fist monk, the attack bonus is almost worthless: Both the min and dis gloves have +16 AB on them giving you access to slash and blunt. While the DB piercing gloves do not have +16 it's almost irrelevant. You can get GMW on gloves, and piercing is a mediocre damage type almost everywhere but Elysium and on balors anyway. I don't know about that. Increasing Dex above 14 will cost you 1 AC vs. putting the points into Wisdom, and, since this isn't a uni (or near-uni) build, you don't really get much benefit out of the extra Dex.
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Post by desocupado on Feb 23, 2015 16:17:16 GMT
Did some tweaks to build 1, and put persuade in build 2.
I was thinking due bab 15, couldn't build 1 be fine with less ab ? I.e. the last attack is just 12 less ab than the first
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Post by bazukar on Feb 23, 2015 19:08:18 GMT
I don't know about that. Increasing Dex above 14 will cost you 1 AC vs. putting the points into Wisdom, and, since this isn't a uni (or near-uni) build, you don't really get much benefit out of the extra Dex. The real question is why aren't people reaching for near/uni tank status? I'd rather lose ac and make dex checks. Period. My staffmonk had 131 ac and 62% conceal at 60 and had an 85% + dodge rate. I also used koly. Don't bother with called shot. I tried to make a damage focused AA with CS utility. At 120 AB CS is still mediocre at best. I gave up on the whole project but that's for another thread. And why are you so focused on a pure monk? Pure monks are for two things. Open subs, or making a nigh unkillable true unimonster with insane SR that laughs at everything in it's vicinity. Couldn't punch a hole in a wall of wet tissue, but hey. No reason to have 15 BAB. Heck if you take enough T1 levels early you could get 17. As far as disarm you need to build for it. Monks usually don't have the AB to work with it and it doesn't start being useable till 105ish ab, reliable post 110. My staffmonk took 13 WM and ended up with AB good enough to use it, but it was an afterthought, not what it was originally built for. For a damage route weapon spec is definitely a viable alternative.
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Post by desocupado on Feb 23, 2015 21:25:02 GMT
And why are you so focused on a pure monk? Pure monks are for two things. Open subs, or making a nigh unkillable true unimonster with insane SR that laughs at everything in it's vicinity. Couldn't punch a hole in a wall of wet tissue, but hey. No reason to have 15 BAB. Heck if you take enough T1 levels early you could get 17. As far as disarm you need to build for it. Monks usually don't have the AB to work with it and it doesn't start being useable till 105ish ab, reliable post 110. My staffmonk took 13 WM and ended up with AB good enough to use it, but it was an afterthought, not what it was originally built for. For a damage route weapon spec is definitely a viable alternative. Well, being pure nets some SR (80), stun/qp DC, much more concealment (80% vs 65%), 2-3 AC (1 per 5 monk levels), move speed, 2nd free survival feat, slight dps boost (keen) and ki points. If i get the CL 50 Divine power cloak from abyss i could recover the extra attack. Well there are 2 builds side by side because i'm not close minded about it. ---- Forgot aobut the staff nerf... guess staff is a no-go.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 28, 2015 16:58:40 GMT
Now, for something different.
Gnome pro's +1 ac (ab stays the same due str-2) +2 skill points per level (1 over human) Small size enables Morningstar with two hands
Monk 30 Fighter 5 HS 5
Race: Gnome Subrace: Zenythri Artifact: Constitution (Too handy for tanking)
Stats at 60: Str 14+4/sub (+20/level) +6/feats Dex 14+4/sub +2/feat Con 12 +2/arty Int 14 Wis 14+4/sub Cha 08
Skills (all 63, except concentration): Concentration 30-40 Craft Armor Craft weapon Discipline Listen Tumble Persuade Parry // nice bonus
Skills: discipline 4 ranks, lore 6 ranks, persuade 8 ranks, search 4 ranks (harper)
---Saves: (add +35 from epic/leg and magic bonus) Fort 15 + 7 = 22 +4 Reflex 11 + 11 = 22 +4 Will 11 + 10 +2 = 21 +4
Feats
7 +3/fighter 7 +2/monk (armor skin and epic prowess) +2/harper (great dex II) 7 = 28
3 LWS 2 - Great dex 2 // harper level epic bonus feat 2 - saves -- luck of heroes & leg luck 2 - harper req: alertness, iron will 5 WF GWF IC ESF LWF 4 Power g. cleave OC DC 2 EP AS // monk level epic bonus feat 6 Great str +6 1 Martial proficiency 1 ESF Persuade // helps
Paragon
PWF PWS Dex check +4 LSF Persuade Open x2
---AB at 60 (could use +1--+4) 41/bab +8/feat +23/str +1/size +2/CW +20/mag --> 95 +1/+2 - str+14/+16 +1/+2 - demix1/x2 +1 Paragon str+2 +2 PWF +5 PBAB +1 if you manage to keep CW 120
AC 10 - base 17 - natural (mayb e more) 0+15 - armor modifer (armor bonus + base armor type) 11 - dex modifier (may be limited by armor type) 17 - deflection 20 - dodge + haste 12 - tumble (depends on skill level) 2 - armor skin 10 - wisdom (certain classes/armor) 2 - skill modifier 6 - class ac bonus 1 - size modifier AC 123-143 about 60-65% concealment[/quote]
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Post by desocupado on Oct 14, 2016 18:00:25 GMT
I've been punching some numbers due "recent" changes: 1 - Staves get monk progression and flurry of blows (3 extra attacks) but no 2hand modifier 2 - 2 handed weapons get +40% dps Damage comparison
| Against regular foe
| Against critical immune | Quarterstaff 10 attacks at (17-20 x3)
| 10*(16*100% + 4*300%)/20
~1400% per round
| 950% per round
| Martial weapon I 7 attacks at 140% dps and (11-20 x3)
| 7*1,4(9*100+10*300)/20
~1911%¨per round
| 931% per round
| Martial Weapon II 7 attacks at 140% dps and (17-20 x5)
| 7*1,4*(16*100% + 4*500%)/20
~1764% per round
| 931% per round
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2016 19:36:04 GMT
I've been punching some numbers due "recent" changes: 1 - Staves get monk progression and flurry of blows (3 extra attacks) but no 2hand modifier 2 - 2 handed weapons get +40% dps Damage comparison
| Against regular foe
| Against critical immune | Quarterstaff 10 attacks at (17-20 x3)
| 10*(16*100% + 4*300%)/20
~1400% per round
| 950% per round
| Martial weapon I 7 attacks at 140% dps and (11-20 x3)
| 7*1,4(9*100+10*300)/20
~1911%¨per round
| 931% per round
| Martial Weapon II 7 attacks at 140% dps and (17-20 x5)
| 7*1,4*(16*100% + 4*500%)/20
~1764% per round
| 931% per round
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This is a bit over-simplified. First of all AFAIK Flurry of Blows does NOT work with Quarterstaff (it's supposed to, but it's bugged), so unfortunately you would only get +2 APR instead of +3. I could be wrong about this though, so it would be good if someone could confirm. Secondly (and far more importantly), this analysis doesn't factor in DAMAGE RESISTANCE (DR) which is a huge advantage of the 2H bonus. Dealing 'large packet' damage is more effective against mobs with DR (ie: practically everything past Hell), and in general a 40% 2H bonus will quickly pull ahead of any DPS bonus gained from Quarterstaff's +2 APR/no 2H bonus. TL;DR - Quarterstaff (and Monk weapons in general) need some help!
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Post by tank on Oct 14, 2016 19:42:59 GMT
quarterstaves dont get any 2h bonus anymore
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Post by desocupado on Oct 14, 2016 20:04:31 GMT
I'm aware of the whole damage resistance (and even the ab effect that is magnified by any reduction) - I just wanted to put the extra attacks on the staff and compare - hence "punch numbers in". What we have so far is that the staff with three more attacks closes the damage of a regular weapon against critical immune (assuming harper extra attacks) IF resistance wouldn't affect it more than the other. Useless derail Silliness aside... I'll punch a Monk 35 Fighter 4 Pal 1 no OC/DC or Harper i.e. freeing up some feats for something like improved SR feats (starts at 74 in this class breakdown) Damage comparison
(IC only)
| Against regular foe
| Against critical immune | Quarterstaff 8 attacks at (18-20 x2)
| 8*(16*100% + 4*200%)/20
~960% per round
| 760% per round
| Martial weapon I 5 attacks at 140% dps and (11-20 x2)
| 5*1,4(9*100+10*200)/20
~1015%¨per round
| 665% per round
| Martial Weapon II 5 attacks at 140% dps and (17-20 x4)
| 5*1,4*(15*100% + 4*400%)/20
~1085% per round
| 665% per round
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To reduce one staff attack just make a 7/8 multiplication - 840% 665%
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