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Post by desocupado on Mar 17, 2016 12:01:31 GMT
I didn't like the status much (hard to justify fire doing slow)
Breath
Wing buffet
--------- Well I tried to get it closer to a shifter's dragon shape efficiency. Some concerns I can think: 1 - Fear aura does give +3 dc (unless the disciple's base dc is high he will always be worse than the ones he helps doing his things) 2 - Exotic damage is quite high (threader realibly tops it - while bombardment, earthquake and meteor swarm are comparable) 3 - It also inflicts vulnerability (after vulnerability it reaches shifter's elemental damage) It used to inflict vulnerability (could have a bit of that back) 4 - People start making Full support build with just breath weapon for damage (new)
Workarounds: 1 - Grant the extra dc at 63, when a caster could get the PSF (to delay a bit the power spike)
2 - Reduce exotic damage a bit (d10~214 or d8~176) to offset the spammable nature (or idea 3) 3 - Grant it some sort of ammo system akin to shifter's Essence Points - let's say you can use 6 breaths or 12 wing buffet every 2 minutes (20 rounds after the first one you use, you regain all those uses - a second wind)
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Post by louisvilleslugger on Mar 17, 2016 20:35:25 GMT
Idea:
Change CoT Nimbus into a bueroza/planatar effect spell failure (keeps timers and such the same). Would become a unique feature, rather than a duplicate SR dropper.
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Post by woqued on Mar 17, 2016 20:57:08 GMT
Idea: Change CoT Nimbus into a bueroza/planatar effect spell failure (keeps timers and such the same). Would become a unique feature, rather than a duplicate SR dropper. Then would have to remove mind immunity from CoTs just to see them get confused and watch party die
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 17, 2016 20:59:55 GMT
I definitely wasn't thinking about this as a quasiclass feature the other day..... *innocent whistle*
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Post by simpetar on Mar 18, 2016 13:35:55 GMT
Back on XDD topic: Suggested changes to breath:Breath can be easily compared to smiting. Both can be used once per 2 minutes when focused on, the respective classes need to take 10 respective epic feats. Damage- (2*(XDD level + LLs))d16 elemental and ((XDD lvl + LLs)/2)d16 exotic type. (avg. 850 elemental + 212 exotic, compare to smiter with 50 charisma, 840 primary + 210 Vile/Sacred) - The breath never heals (if it did, it causes no damage instead). - Con arti increases the damage dice to d20. - Legendary XDDs who do not belong to a quasiclass deal Primal damage instead of exotic. DC- Breath currently offers reflex save for half (or nothing with evasion), while maximized smite never misses. Breath DC should therefore be high enough to allow monsters to pass only on rare occasions. - DC = (XDD + LLs)/2 + str mod + 1 per each Epic Toughness Suggested changes to Wing BuffetWing Buffet, unlike breath, can be spammed, and should be weaker to compensate the unlimited uses. Each use however comes at the cost of losing a whole round worth of attacks, which is the default tank action. During this one round a caster can cast Gust of Wind or Desert Sirocco twice, both of which have the same effect and then resort to their other spells. - DC = 18 + str mod + 1 per Epic Toughness; this DC will be roughly on par with Gust of Wind. 18 base comes from GoV base (10 + spell level + 5 bonus), Epic Toughness corresponds to focus ranks that a caster would need to take (ET10 ~ PSF), str mod represents caster mod. XDDs get 20 strength "free", but it is in fact paid for with ET feats and the fact that tanks need to spread stats wider than casters. - Wing Buffet can destroy wind-like creatures on failed save - no longer causes any damage (you want to destroy the fume, not trigger more KB while trying) - extra icing on the cake (could be an Ego): if Wing Buffet fails to knock the target down because of immunity to KD, another effect will occur depending on vulnerability; daze/stun (wings knock the target unconscious) or confuse (disorienting the target)
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Post by simpetar on Mar 18, 2016 13:55:46 GMT
Some more ideas for draggies (freely continued from the previous post)
- Characters with 50 XDD levels (including LLs) have grown so strong wings that they can levitate. - Paragon Toughness feats allow XDDs to further focus on their draconic heritage in the following ways: +5 dice to both breath damage types, +2 breath DC, +2 Wing Buffet DC, +1 round of KD (or other effect) caused by Wing Buffet per every Paragon Toughness. In addition, if the XDD has at least Paragon Toughness III, dragon fear aura inflict 1 additional penalty to saves, AB, and skills.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 18, 2016 14:35:43 GMT
Back on XDD topic: Suggested changes to breath:Breath can be easily compared to smiting. Both can be used once per 2 minutes when focused on, the respective classes need to take 10 respective epic feats. Damage- (2*(XDD level + LLs))d16 elemental and ((XDD lvl + LLs)/2)d16 exotic type. (avg. 850 elemental + 212 exotic, compare to smiter with 50 charisma, 840 primary + 210 Vile/Sacred) - The breath never heals (if it did, it causes no damage instead). - Con arti increases the damage dice to d20. - Legendary XDDs who do not belong to a quasiclass deal Primal damage instead of exotic. DC- Breath currently offers reflex save for half (or nothing with evasion), while maximized smite never misses. Breath DC should therefore be high enough to allow monsters to pass only on rare occasions. - DC = (XDD + LLs)/2 + str mod + 1 per each Epic Toughness Suggested changes to Wing BuffetWing Buffet, unlike breath, can be spammed, and should be weaker to compensate the unlimited uses. Each use however comes at the cost of losing a whole round worth of attacks, which is the default tank action. During this one round a caster can cast Gust of Wind or Desert Sirocco twice, both of which have the same effect and then resort to their other spells. - DC = 18 + str mod + 1 per Epic Toughness; this DC will be roughly on par with Gust of Wind. 18 base comes from GoV base (10 + spell level + 5 bonus), Epic Toughness corresponds to focus ranks that a caster would need to take (ET10 ~ PSF), str mod represents caster mod. XDDs get 20 strength "free", but it is in fact paid for with ET feats and the fact that tanks need to spread stats wider than casters. - Wing Buffet can destroy wind-like creatures on failed save - no longer causes any damage (you want to destroy the fume, not trigger more KB while trying) - extra icing on the cake (could be an Ego): if Wing Buffet fails to knock the target down because of immunity to KD, another effect will occur depending on vulnerability; daze/stun (wings knock the target unconscious) or confuse (disorienting the target) Breath Str mod does help on the scaling later and will help a lot on the demigod/paragon issues (good idea) However a smiter can opt between 4 damage types (with 2 exotics) and does additional exoteric damage (primal seems odd for a dragon). -I don't think making it more similar to smiter is a good thing tough (greater smiting doesn't really change the gameplay, just gives an occasional extra punch). //don't forget the vulnerabilityWing -It doesn't instant kill mobs currently, just kd (still you also suggested that) -The Ego idea seems a bit strong
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Post by simpetar on Mar 18, 2016 16:35:48 GMT
Yes, I agree that being able to chose between 4 types of damage is awesome, but could not think of any dragon theme solution. As for Primal damage, some of the dragons are the most ancient creatures in Faerun, who literally were there, when the world began. One of the major XDD issues these days is lack of damage. Unresistable damage is not an option any more, stronger weapon buffs are already taken by their quasis, infliction by dragon breath (respectively the artifact) was removed (and for a good reason). The "occasional extra punch" alone probably cannot solve this issue, but I tried to suggest at least a competitive version.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 18, 2016 17:29:36 GMT
Yes, I agree that being able to chose between 4 types of damage is awesome, but could not think of any dragon theme solution. As for Primal damage, some of the dragons are the most ancient creatures in Faerun, who literally were there, when the world began. One of the major XDD issues these days is lack of damage. Unresistable damage is not an option any more, stronger weapon buffs are already taken by their quasis, infliction by dragon breath (respectively the artifact) was removed (and for a good reason). The "occasional extra punch" alone probably cannot solve this issue, but I tried to suggest at least a competitive version. I forgot about the infliction removal (been a long time since I changed my xDD into a BFM) - maybe a infliction akin to wyrmling shape - 5% per casting with a limited duration or less than 50 value
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 21, 2016 4:12:20 GMT
Back on XDD topic: Suggested changes to breath:Breath can be easily compared to smiting. Both can be used once per 2 minutes when focused on, the respective classes need to take 10 respective epic feats. Damage- (2*(XDD level + LLs))d16 elemental and ((XDD lvl + LLs)/2)d16 exotic type. (avg. 850 elemental + 212 exotic, compare to smiter with 50 charisma, 840 primary + 210 Vile/Sacred) - The breath never heals (if it did, it causes no damage instead). - Con arti increases the damage dice to d20. - Legendary XDDs who do not belong to a quasiclass deal Primal damage instead of exotic. DC- Breath currently offers reflex save for half (or nothing with evasion), while maximized smite never misses. Breath DC should therefore be high enough to allow monsters to pass only on rare occasions. - DC = (XDD + LLs)/2 + str mod + 1 per each Epic Toughness Suggested changes to Wing BuffetWing Buffet, unlike breath, can be spammed, and should be weaker to compensate the unlimited uses. Each use however comes at the cost of losing a whole round worth of attacks, which is the default tank action. During this one round a caster can cast Gust of Wind or Desert Sirocco twice, both of which have the same effect and then resort to their other spells. - DC = 18 + str mod + 1 per Epic Toughness; this DC will be roughly on par with Gust of Wind. 18 base comes from GoV base (10 + spell level + 5 bonus), Epic Toughness corresponds to focus ranks that a caster would need to take (ET10 ~ PSF), str mod represents caster mod. XDDs get 20 strength "free", but it is in fact paid for with ET feats and the fact that tanks need to spread stats wider than casters. - Wing Buffet can destroy wind-like creatures on failed save - no longer causes any damage (you want to destroy the fume, not trigger more KB while trying) - extra icing on the cake (could be an Ego): if Wing Buffet fails to knock the target down because of immunity to KD, another effect will occur depending on vulnerability; daze/stun (wings knock the target unconscious) or confuse (disorienting the target) This is the basic form of analysis I need to see in order to considered class edits. Nice work, though it needs elaboration. You covered, in part, one of two major things previously lacking in this thread: consideration for how the edits compare to other comparable abilities. That begins to address the question of how the edit will impact the server at large, and helps to ensure that game balance isn't disturbed overmuch. More is needed, however. The other thing, which has barely been touched on in this thread, is why the abilities need improvement. Are they not being used? What effect does it have when the player uses them? That said, I am going to be pretty sympathetic to edits suggesting dc scaling for paragon levels, in order to maintain the abilities' previous power. It's when you suggest that they go beyond their former (pre-paragon) balancing that I'm going to hear more. By way of example, suppose we gave xDD breath dc 10% lower than a pure caster's (if you want to lock the scaling to something else, like CoT, fine, but the more context you provide, the more likely I am to approve or take the edit to the team). Using the caster example, suppose caster DCs went up a total of 5 as a result of paragon levels, and xDD DCs remained non-scaling with paragon levels. That's a pretty easy rationalization to make, but you need to spell out the details, in order to explain why an edit is merited. If you are proposing more than a 'paragon status quo' edit, you will need to go into much more detail as to why the ability isn't seeing play, and what should be done to fix it. Thanks for the thoughtful analyses, and keep em coming! Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 21, 2016 4:15:24 GMT
I absolutely do no not want to tie a breath weapon effect to a single xDD type. For sure there would be one effect that would be better than the rest, and would force xDD players to a certain color. Adding options is better than restrictions. I disagree with this line of thinking. You could use the same reasoning to decide that there shouldn't be xDDs at all. I do agree, however, that things would have to be balanced pretty carefully in order not to disproportionately favor one color. You can do that by altering dcs, granting other abilities, etc. Funky
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Post by simpetar on Mar 21, 2016 9:42:22 GMT
The other thing, which has barely been touched on in this thread, is why the abilities need improvement. Are they not being used? What effect does it have when the player uses them? Short answer: they are not being used. Little longer answer: they are used very rarely. Breath's current DC and damage are so low that one round of attacking single monster is always more beneficial than breathing at several. Typical example of niche use is a lvl 60 white DD using cold breath for a pack of Abimanders in DB run: outleveling the zone with monsters extremely vulnerable to the damage type, stacked tightly for maximum effect. This kind of scenario simply does not happen in the end game. Historically the breath had its uses for BFMs with the Orb of the Dragonkind, but it was more because of the arti, not breath itself. Breath followed up with Firebrands had a devastating effect on anything vulnerable to fire, but after removal of the infliction not even BFMs use it. Wing Buffet is in a similar position. The DC is so low, that it cannot KD targets, unless they are severely debuffed fodder trash. The biggest advantage of Wing Buffet is that it removes the need of carrying Gust scrolls / rods around. If XDDs want to KD something, they will usually take the KD feats that do not interrupt attacking, or in case of BFM/DSM, use one of their Hellballs. By editing Breath, the players will get access to a meaningful "extra punch", as Deso put it. It might not be a great portion of overall damage, but rather a sudden burst for eligible targets (eligible because of the elemental type). By editing Wing Buffet, the players will get access to 2 potentially powerful tools: AoE KD and destroying wind creatures. AoE KD is not that unusual, it is essentially what Paragon Knockdown does with high enough AB, as swift action. Also many spells have the same effect, using various DC mechanics: Grease, Balagarn's Iron Horn, Great Thunderclap, Gust / Sirocco and others. Destroying winds is limited to situations where winds are present (lol... I mean, it is niche too). XDDs would be in a worse position than a dedicated casters - casters get 2 attempts in a round, XDD only 1, but in a better position than a dragon shifter / druid, because these need to pay for the attempts with Essence Points. That said, I am going to be pretty sympathetic to edits suggesting dc scaling for paragon levels, in order to maintain the abilities' previous power. It's when you suggest that they go beyond their former (pre-paragon) balancing that I'm going to hear more. By way of example, suppose we gave xDD breath dc 10% lower than a pure caster's (if you want to lock the scaling to something else, like CoT, fine, but the more context you provide, the more likely I am to approve or take the edit to the team). Using the caster example, suppose caster DCs went up a total of 5 as a result of paragon levels, and xDD DCs remained non-scaling with paragon levels. That's a pretty easy rationalization to make, but you need to spell out the details, in order to explain why an edit is merited. If you are proposing more than a 'paragon status quo' edit, you will need to go into much more detail as to why the ability isn't seeing play, and what should be done to fix it. Yes, I was aware that suggesting that paragon feats have effect on specific class was a bold and unprecedented move, but not totally unheard of (e.g. discussions about Paragon Soul Trader for PMs). Just a wild idea and I wanted to see your reaction. That said, it would offer alternatives and continue the draconic-evolution-flavor thing from epic levels.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 21, 2016 13:04:58 GMT
The other thing, which has barely been touched on in this thread, is why the abilities need improvement. Are they not being used? What effect does it have when the player uses them? Short answer: they are not being used. This is true to most suggestions on first topic - not used features are a focus (power bump is the way I found to make it make sense to chose those classes and their features). Most other ideas head toward either allowing an out of meta buildWing Buffet is in a similar position. The DC is so low, that it cannot KD targets, unless they are severely debuffed fodder trash. The biggest advantage of Wing Buffet is that it removes the need of carrying Gust scrolls / rods around. If XDDs want to KD something, they will usually take the KD feats that do not interrupt attacking, or in case of BFM/DSM, use one of their Hellballs. Incidentally you didn't point out a thing: BFM/DSM have WAY more DC than xDD - BFM levels (57-60) + Con mod - I do kd stuff a lot with this BFM
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Post by simpetar on Mar 21, 2016 13:19:26 GMT
Incidentally you didn't point out a thing: BFM/DSM have WAY more DC than xDD - BFM levels (57-60) + Con mod - I do kd stuff a lot with this BFMOh yes, thanks for reminder, I forgot about that. It is ironic, quasiclass with stronger ability than the original class, just as DwDs and chanters.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 21, 2016 14:46:18 GMT
By way of example, suppose we gave xDD breath dc 10% lower than a pure caster's (if you want to lock the scaling to something else, like CoT, fine, but the more context you provide, the more likely I am to approve or take the edit to the team). Using the caster example, suppose caster DCs went up a total of 5 as a result of paragon levels, and xDD DCs remained non-scaling with paragon levels. That's a pretty easy rationalization to make, but you need to spell out the details, in order to explain why an edit is merited. That would mean +3 dc on paragon levels (which is my first suggestion) - however spam-ability is the other thing breath lacks - It needs to be spammed to be a valid combat tactic opposed to Greater Smite's every once in a while extra damage. (my best experience with G.smite was having 2 smiters at once doing simultaneous smiting) Given critical mechanics and weapon buffs breath would only be useful against critical immune foes under severe save drop debuffs. Tough I would expect a xDD being better at Dragon stuff (breath and wing buffet) than a Dragon Shifter (who is mimicking them, in a sense). (same would go for Lash, Assassin) Given the strict focus of tank's class features I would find it fair to have them with caster's efficiency regardless of having unlimited uses (or any other advantage). Casters are versatile, tanks aren't.
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