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Post by chirality on Mar 27, 2015 21:09:58 GMT
Arguing about epics when the toon will be forced to flee from even a normal erinyes? Which is more valuable: IoF or resiliency to Dex-based disables? Or if you prefer the other way, which is worse: lacking your full phys dmg on Asmo or running a very real risk of being useless for an entire spawn if the vitiarch didn't get insta'd fast enough? If you're not going to take Gird (which is reasonable since it's extremely popular nowadays), that's fine, but benefit IoF provides you is minimal or inconsequential when taken into consideration a) not uber dmg in the 1st place and b) the decrease in damage output that will result from suffering such a bad dex. Due to providing BT and being one of desired tanker for inflict slaggers due self GR, being able to position as you please, regardless of spawn composition, is not really just a luxury.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 27, 2015 22:47:10 GMT
Arguing about epics when the toon will be forced to flee from even a normal erinyes? Which is more valuable: IoF or resiliency to Dex-based disables? Or if you prefer the other way, which is worse: lacking your full phys dmg on Asmo or running a very real risk of being useless for an entire spawn if the vitiarch didn't get insta'd fast enough? If you're not going to take Gird (which is reasonable since it's extremely popular nowadays), that's fine, but benefit IoF provides you is minimal or inconsequential when taken into consideration a) not uber dmg in the 1st place and b) the decrease in damage output that will result from suffering such a bad dex. Due to providing BT and being one of desired tanker for inflict slaggers due self GR, being able to position as you please, regardless of spawn composition, is not really just a luxury. Are you sure you are talking about a cleric build or just ranting at general one hander tanks? Remember, the nice level 1 spell clerics can use, foundation of stone. 14 dex is ok, higher than most casters. Who are a possible target for enryes like this guy
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Post by chirality on Mar 27, 2015 23:19:51 GMT
Indeed, casters do try to maintain at least that much dex to not worry about erinyes and bees. FoS will indeed prevent KD, at a heavy price. In fact it doesn't help either problem I indicated (dex dom and freedom to position as demanded). Actually I wouldn't recommend using that when near erinyes . I wasn't thinking and typed normal; i meant paragon ofc This was no rant I read some very good advice and I was offering my unasked opinion on that. I guess you misunderstood. Here's another try: my opinion is that you should aim to be resilient/immune to as many of the common hell disabling things as possible, even if it means sacrificing IoF. Gird is commonplace due to rise in popularity of chanter and decrease in popularity of IoF (in favor of Abj/Ench) on ploder. You indicate to rely on the case of these toons girding you. It's my opinion that either Gird or even just measly +2 Dex would be a superior choice to IoF. Gird: because you will be completely self-sufficient and bring a nice utility in a party lacking other cleric/chanter. Dex: because it will improve your functionality as a tank (and make you cooler than other nub BCs that start as dexfodder). You indicate equal commitment to "tanking" as well as "damaging", so don't forget that being more resistant to domination/kd better directly increases your damage (subtracting time spent not attacking due to failure at tanking).
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Post by desocupado on Mar 27, 2015 23:53:20 GMT
So basically drop 4 cha (3 damage and 2 saves) for 2 dex. While i'm not convinced, i'll add it on variant section. ------------- Actually depending on base Dex, one could use lighter armor ---- If you want a "tank theme" you could have the extra school, and pick necro, instead of trans - a revival would go well with a miracle --- I think I could sketch a zenythri / undying two hander uni str cleric - tough it probably would be better with just 1 extra attack from divine might to get higher BAB.
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Post by chirality on Mar 28, 2015 1:33:29 GMT
Where did you get this -4Cha thing from The funny thing is all 3 of your variants are things you made up that no one else actually mentioned It's odd to me why you'd choose sacrificing those things for the suggestions made. You want to add more epics but I was referring to sacrificing epics for stat points. And my goal is to restrict epics, not add more useless ones like ER (really ) Did you consider dropping two points from Cha to Wis (15+4 = 19, enough to cast 9s) to free two feats? You indicated that cleric bonus feat choices restricted your choice to this path. Well, consider this: Only true "required" feats from cleric epicbonus list are GrtWis and AS. If you take 4 wis + AS you can drop start wis. Furthermore 20 is unnecessary. With 4x great wis, cleric starting with 11 wisdom would hit required 19 without even investing anything other than default creation minimum. Or if you're stuck on the even mod then just put 12 at creation. Either way you save points, but differently: if you do 19 wis goal and start @11, you end up 1 spare point that is useless, but you could drop Int 2 pts and cut back a bit on the CA/CW, and end up with a sexy set of 14 14 and 15 as you please for Str Dex Cha (lot better than 14 14 12). If you go 20 wis then you still save enough to have 14 14 14. Due the point buy cost it's inefficient to raise higher than that, but at the same time might as well go up to 14 since it's no more expensive than 12. The 2 bonus ftr feats allow you to indeed have 2 spare feats, but it's only because you chose to put them for SF/GSF that you feel obligated to finish the epic (at cost of yet another feat, so this with +1 extra wisdom is already 2 feats/statpts). Pre-PWS bc had no reason for more pre-epic ftr levels so those 2 preepic feats which you assign sf/gsf trans were crucial and required for the weapon feats you took on fighter levels. However, did you consider other possibilities for the pre-epic feat arrangement? There are other options that, while not as flashy as IoF, could still improve some aspect of your toon and free up the precious 1 epic/LL feat. You want to drop 4cha but are having "open" LL feat slots. This doesn't make sense to me. LSF or ESF? You're a BC. Find gear that maxes your disc and keep gr; as for skillfocus craft armor/weapon, that's incredible to me given that you already spent 2 stat points worth of int to max ca/cw anyway. So you could be looking at 2 more cha at start for all 3 @ 14, save 2x feats by dropping ESF trans@40 and "open"@60, all in all this is 4 statpoints gained, which is dramatic considering it wouldn't impact any of the the baseline numbers you already have, except loss of IoF and "extra skill buffer defense".
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Post by desocupado on Mar 28, 2015 2:23:03 GMT
Where did you get this -4Cha thing from The funny thing is all 3 of your variants are things you made up that no one else actually mentioned It's odd to me why you'd choose sacrificing those things for the suggestions made. You want to add more epics but I was referring to sacrificing epics for stat points. And my goal is to restrict epics, not add more useless ones like ER (really ) ER wouldn't be useless, but it's far from optimal. - Could work to play around oinos or to prevent a wipe. The point was to illustrate how one epic could be "tanky". The 2 bonus ftr feats allow you to indeed have 2 spare feats, but it's only because you chose to put them for SF/GSF that you feel obligated to finish the epic ... Not at all. I choose battle cleric to grab epics, not the other way around. The stat spread was to maximize cost-benefit ratio
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Post by Matt on Apr 2, 2015 14:41:34 GMT
To be fair you can be pretty un kd'able if you use foundation of stone right. It drops your dex to 3 meaning you will lose some AC but on a str tank that uses heavy armour anyway i dont think that drop will be too much when it prevents you from getting melted while sat down anyway. The first build you posted is solid, and would work nice with a morningstar to do your job on non crit mobs. If the character is a reinc aswell from a high paragon level, you can almost certainly put more points into dex for stat check purposes. The AB is looking to be about 106 maxed out so you could be happy with adding like 4 more dex to reach 32 w/+14 at lvl 60. Reaching buffed 40 @ lvl 80
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