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Post by desocupado on Mar 27, 2015 11:47:36 GMT
(under construction - to be completed later)Well, the truth is, we need more cores to get more runs going on. Role | Regular Core | Alternatives | Damage | Arcane (evocation)
| BFM / DSM Pariah 2 handed tank
| Instant kill
| Arcane (Trans, Illusion, Death magic) Cleric (Death and implosion)
| Druid (Drown) Assassin Ranger
| No hit mobs
| Cleric (Implosion)
| Arcane (Gust) Bard Druid Turner
| SR drop
| Druid (Nature's balance)
| Arcane (aoe mord) Cleric/ Bard (bestow curse) Stormlord
| Disable | Druid (Conjuration) Druid (Immute) Turner
| Arcane & Bard (Enhcantment) Tanks
| Debuff
| Cleric (Prayer / Battle tyde) Bard (curse song)
| Barbarian xDD (fear aura)
| Buff
| Cleric (Guirding) Bard (bard song & UUU) Druid (Shunt & Shroud)
| Abjuration (energy immunity)
| Emergency
| Cleric (Miracle) Druid (Immute)
| Fighter (Superior Parry) Cleric Paladin Arcane (extra life) Bard (Possums)
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That leaves some expected schools Arcane - Evocation illusion necromancy transmutation Bard - Transmutation Cleric - Evocation Divination Enchantment Druid - Transmutation Evocation So, if people were o make a second core of the same class, which variation could we do?
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Post by Matt on Mar 27, 2015 12:10:22 GMT
Shifters would fill practically all the boxes other than emergency and buffs. Upside of Shifters is that a majority of the shapes dont need any form of SR drop.
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Post by Yojimbo on Mar 27, 2015 12:33:07 GMT
Damage Arcane school also includes Conjuration for orbs and such also Arcane for no-hit mobs should include Disintegrate.
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Post by morrinchivay on Mar 27, 2015 12:41:27 GMT
Don't forget Warchanter for buff/debuff and SD for Emergency.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 27, 2015 16:16:14 GMT
Yeah, maybe it needs another division:
Death magic Illusion magic Critical Hit (thus heartbane, or regular good crit can enter) AC boosters / AB bebuffs
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On the other hand, anyone would try to work on a spell school combination list?
For instance - Druid works just fine with transmutation and evocation - so people can fit necromancy, abjuration or illusion just fine.
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Post by Xiayu on Mar 27, 2015 19:47:05 GMT
I think the main problem is actually getting people to play what is needed to get a run started. Be it because they actually do not have the required class, they do not feel comfortable playing it, they do not feel like playing it at all, or just lack of awareness on what it could achieve.
Making a list like this is a complex thing, many roles/alternatives might vary depending on people’s personal opinion. Some of these alternatives don’t really fulfill a needed core. Remember that there has not been an update for over a year that has actually changed the game-play. In that time, many classes and combinations have been built and tested. Many have been a failure, and some have been successful. Here is my take on it:
Disclaimer: this list includes ‘useful or proven’ builds for endgame runs (Hells/Abyss mainly but also Elysium/Aboleth). Some of them might require Hell/Abyss wins, and/or good randomized/set items in order to achieve their full potential.
Non Caster (this includes both melee and ranged classes that do not focus on their casting ability):
Damage.
- Two Hander User (Cleric/Monk/Paladin/Rogue/Blackguard/Champion of Torm): Anyone can grab a two-hand weapon and call themselves damage dealers with that extra 30%, however; can you actually survive long enough to do any damage? Do you offer anything else to your party?
The classes mentioned here do. High immunities (Gate/Soak), AC boosts (Monk/Ranger/Divine Shield) or Evasion (Epic Dodge/Concealment) make them sturdy enough, while some of them still provide some sort of party support other than damage. They are tricky to play, as they require smart positioning and good knowledge of the mod and NWN mechanics. The downside is that they require very good gear and/or demi/abyss bonuses so it is not recommended for newer players.
- Barbarian/Staffmaster: They have become rarer since they were nerfed and with the addition of Two-Hand Damage but they still have decent damage AND tankiness.
- Paladin (Pure, CHA Smiter): Rechargeable regular smites along with 2 minutes greater smites (fire damage available, which is pretty good, especially in abyss).
Tank (I just wanted to point out that a ‘tank’ is not just any melee, but one that can actually hold enemies without spamming heals).
- Sword & Board: Pretty much any melee with a shield can achieve high AC, so many classes can work for this. Battle Clerics in particular are indisputably tanky; not only they can become unkillable (GR/Gate, among other things), but they also offer nice party support (buffs, cleric epics). The addition paragon levels whils there are only level 60 areas has made it so this ‘role’ is currently defunct. Almost anyone with average gear, that can stay alive long enough to use a heal potion can ‘tank’.
Utility.
- Bard/Dwarven Warchanter: The best class for party support. Bard song, curse, increased ability checks for KD, immunity to silence. Enough said!
- Shifter: Requires good understanding of the module and the enemies. Shifters are truly jack-of-all-trades. They can offer good damage with the right shapes (Dragon/Outsider), Insta kills (Construct/Basilisk) and Utility (Medusa).
- Rogue: Only for Lootz.
- Lash of Hatred: Useful and often overlooked quasi-class. I feel this is because of the over emphasis on party logs, which fail to highlight party contributions or support play. They offer nice inflictions (for a massive party damage increase) on favored enemies, while being sturdy enough.
Caster:
Insta Kill.
- Arcane (Sorcerer/Wizard/Pale Master/Accursed Pariah/Theurge): Necromancy (death magic) and Illusion (Weird) are pretty much a requirement. Transmutation (Disintegrate) is nice to have, especially for Hells (no Trans on PM obviously). PWK (GSF: divination + draught), rebuke (enchantment), banishment (abjuration) are also good spells to have for endgame runs, even if you don’t have high spell focus in that school.
Note that Sorcerer and Accursed Pariah (high level/demi) are the easiest ones for newer players. The rest requires good knowledge of the mod as you have to prepare your spell book accordingly.
- Divine (Cleric/Druid/Theurge): Evocation (Implosion) and Necromancy (Heartbane/Destruction) on cleric (Wisdom based) are a must and Transmutation (Drown/Crumble) is a must on druid.
Damage
- Arcane (Sorcerer/Wizard/Accursed Pariah/Bloodfire Mage/Dragonstorm Mage/Theurge/Herald of the Storm): Evocation is the focus you want if you expect to do any reasonable damage. You get Karsus’s Avatar paragon spell and DC on all the AoE elemental spells. Conjuration to use Orbs is not worth it. Bloodfire/Dragomstorm/Herald are very niche picks but they can have their uses, they also require very good knowledge of the mod.
Utility
- Bard, Pale Master, Druid, Cleric.
Other:
- ‘Okay’ Tier.
Fighter/Arcane Archer/Dwarven Defender/Dragon Disciple/Shadow Dancer/Weapon Master/Bane Knight/Lifethreader: Not mentioned above just because they are a bit lackluster in what they offer to party formation (damage and/or party support) but they do have some nice stuff, just not as good as others. They mostly fit the Tank – Sword & Board section.
- ‘Meh’ Tier.
Assassin/Ranger: Mortal Strike/Called Shot. Mentioned here because they are ‘good’ at what they do: killing the trash enemies. This role is easily fulfilled by Area of Effect insta kill/damage spells so they have never been a priority. They offer little else to a party. Considering such trash mobs can be cleared more efficiently with spells, these class archetypes are not all that useful. Nonetheless, they can do it if there is no better alternative.
- ‘Plz no’ Tier.
Divine Slinger/Gnomish Inventor/Stormlords: Sadly, the only reason to ever have one of these is because they were added, and you had to test them out. They have a fun concept, and everyone makes one hoping to be the first one to make them work. Many changes would be needed for that to happen. No damage, no tankiness, very little support. Only played to feel a sense of uniqueness. I did it, too.
Advice on forming a group/run:
Paragon levels on level 60 content has made it a bit easier to form groups. It is undeniable that you need to cover some roles, depending on the run you wish to do.
Some, such as Bard (or Dwarven Warchanter) have no other useful alternative (Shifter’s Harpy is enough in some cases, but still far from ideal). Cleric/Druid are not a “must have” for most runs currently, and Arcanes have many variants that can work, depending on what you need (Damage/Instakills). However, please consider that these core classes provide more to your party than any non-core/niche class possibly can. These runs are designed with core class parties in mind. You can go without a druid, you can go cleric-less, and you can succeed. It doesn’t always mean it is a good idea, and it is likely to lead to negative run experiences sometimes.
Realise that it is not appealing nor helpful to yourself or your party to make “!runmsg X run needs Bard/Arcane/Cleric/Druid, 4 spots left” when all you have are non-casters/cores.
Do a !who party class. Think of the run you want to do. Think of the enemies you will encounter. Can your group deal with them? If not, can you or anyone else swap classes around? Everyone wants to play or tag their favourite characters, but sometimes, in order to get a run going, someone has to step up, and bring what is missing. You might not get the tag on that run, but you will get experience and a chance for loot instead of sitting around in the docks waiting for others to bring the cores.
Much more importantly, your efforts in getting runs started might be recognised; next time, it might be the others swapping around in order for you to tag on a run.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 27, 2015 20:39:20 GMT
First, nice post Xiayu, very well presented.
It occurs to me a possible compromise - 2 core to enable (hell) runs (either AB or CD), having either pair will probable enable any hell run I think.
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Well, my plan on having spell school alternatives, was a way to incentive people to create a second core. Finding the line between what's required and what's feasible.
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Post by Matt on Mar 27, 2015 21:24:35 GMT
Not sure about Rangers being that bad tbh... High AB meaning they can disarm scary mobs with weapons that you cant instakill or dispatch of very quickly i.e. Moly, Balor, PF etc..., Instakill on creatures that sometimes cant be mass AoE'd only through the likes of Disint which probably isnt the best use of time when you could be spamming AoE dmg spells and whatnot. Also they if pure get 8% conceal drop from invis purge meaning melee attacks will hit more, also makes it easier for orbs to hit. Along side that they also have a very high AC for dual wielding characters with added damage for favored enemies. Self buffs and high conceal make them very sturdy and allow them to dish out a modest amount of damage while tanking both stat checks if made with a BUR race. Also with conceal drop the Ranger can usually CS enemies with spell shields and mantles up making it less hastle for casters.
I'd take a ranger over the other melees you listed as 'Okay' most of the time. Easy to play, often fun to play and speeds up runs more then something that cant instakill and does less dmg i.e. bog standard fighter, DwD and such.
However, all in all nice post. In theory if your bard has gone the tank route w/ high saves and stat checks you don't need anything else to melee stuff. Just taking a couple casters will do the trick.
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Post by chirality on Mar 27, 2015 21:31:29 GMT
orbs don't suffer miss chance due to conceal. rather, the damage itself is reduced due the target's base conceal
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Post by Matt on Mar 27, 2015 21:33:07 GMT
Well call me a sausage and send me off to the kitchen. Not sure how i thought it worked now. Anyways point still stands rangers are good.
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Post by excruciator on Mar 28, 2015 1:28:01 GMT
Not sure about Rangers being that bad tbh... High AB meaning they can disarm scary mobs with weapons that you cant instakill or dispatch of very quickly i.e. Moly, Balor, PF etc..., Instakill on creatures that sometimes cant be mass AoE'd only through the likes of Disint which probably isnt the best use of time when you could be spamming AoE dmg spells and whatnot. Also they if pure get 8% conceal drop from invis purge meaning melee attacks will hit more, also makes it easier for orbs to hit. Along side that they also have a very high AC for dual wielding characters with added damage for favored enemies. Self buffs and high conceal make them very sturdy and allow them to dish out a modest amount of damage while tanking both stat checks if made with a BUR race. Also with conceal drop the Ranger can usually CS enemies with spell shields and mantles up making it less hastle for casters. I'd take a ranger over the other melees you listed as 'Okay' most of the time. Easy to play, often fun to play and speeds up runs more then something that cant instakill and does less dmg i.e. bog standard fighter, DwD and such. However, all in all nice post. In theory if your bard has gone the tank route w/ high saves and stat checks you don't need anything else to melee stuff. Just taking a couple casters will do the trick. Firstly; any "tank" over level 60 can disarm "scary" mobs with ease. This mod was plagued with sub 95 ab "tanks" for a matter of years due to ill informed metagame trends. Ranger is sadly a trash tier class with little viability in the "current" higher ground meta, which had been stagnant now for a number of years. Like it or not, there are three endgame optimal melee archetypes; Barbarian, Lash and Paladin. Arguably, Staffmaster has a niche, but it's really questionable considering the three archetypes I mentioned and what they bring to the table. Everything else is suboptimal, and depending upon your relative viewpoint, trash tier. Strictly speaking, in metagame terms, anything Xia listed as "okay" pretty much falls under the banner of "almost useless". Rangers and Assassins are "almost useless" if your party is anywhere near competent; suboptimal damage, inconsequential instakilling and low party utility contribution. I have a multpile demi iteration ranger. So do many of the people I played with. Even when built optimally and fully utilising invisibilty purge, played to their maximum capability, they are, in the grand scheme of things, suboptimal and substandard. This is somewhat irrelevant assuming your party is sub-optimal in and of itself. In such circumstances, this is a highly pertinent consideration, and one which should be contemplated by anyone wishing to "carry" a run. In all honesty though, if you are wishing to "carry" a run by yourself, you should be playing a core class, considering they offer more in terms of raw carry ability than any other archetype on offer by several orders of magnitude. This is true for any experienced bard/cleric/mage/druid. Class archetypes that require more knowledge and skill reap higher rewards. If you're only playing point click melee, accept that you're going to be taking a back seat. It's really that simple.
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Post by Matt on Mar 28, 2015 9:41:56 GMT
Meh, like someone pointed out in another thread, Bards are stupidly OP if made right, you don't need tanks anymore if you have a uni bard. After all, everyone says the casters should be doing the killing.
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Post by fallenwizard on Mar 28, 2015 11:41:23 GMT
Meh, like someone pointed out in another thread, Bards are stupidly OP if made right, you don't need tanks anymore if you have a uni bard. After all, everyone says the casters should be doing the killing. I joined server back in 2009 I think and never in my time you've needed tanks for anything. A competent ABCD did it all, thou having a tank made things like nessus easier. So I'm not sure when was the time you speak of when tanks were needed. And yes, casters should be doing the killing, which they generaly also do. I have very little experience in running with paragon levels, my experience comes 95% of lvl 60 gameplay and from what I hear/see lvl 80 only made casters, especialy arcane only so much stronger compared to rest of the lot. And yes, I remember the time when you had 3-4 rangers in a party, I never liked them however, tank rangers just aint really good at anything, they are more of jack of all trades, which as a alrdy filler in party doesnt really cut it for me. Anyways, you all can talk about usefulness of this and that as much as you like, but untill someone goes and does endgame runs with those classes in groups of 3-5 in reasonable time and say that they contributed to said run as much as others, then I'll take the it seriously.
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Post by Matt on Mar 28, 2015 11:56:21 GMT
I totally agree. As for the group of 3-5 people, i ranger would be a better addition to the party then some of the others he listed in the 'Okay' Tier. However, having multiple cores is better overall, just fun to play non-cores sometimes.
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Post by fallenwizard on Mar 28, 2015 12:40:32 GMT
I totally agree. As for the group of 3-5 people, i ranger would be a better addition to the party then some of the others he listed in the 'Okay' Tier. However, having multiple cores is better overall, just fun to play non-cores sometimes. You're missing the point, which is, none of them are good. Nitpicking which is better than other doesnt do much when they are all bad.
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