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Post by Matt on Mar 28, 2015 14:56:08 GMT
No easy way to rebalance tanks to casters though is there?
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Post by chirality on Mar 28, 2015 15:38:13 GMT
Why should there be? If you want a game where all the classes are "casters" and the only real difference between class mechanics is just flavor/graphics/names, DnD really isn't the one to play If you're still not satisfied with the extreme power boost handed to tanks via randomization/PLs, then why do you refuse to play the classes that you know are better? You said yesterday you didn't want to play your normal mode toon cuz it was a boring ploder. There's absolutely nothing boring about playing any "core" class--sole exception being you already did it TOO MUCH on EVERY RUN and there is nothing new under the sun for you on HG, which very few people can actually say--and especially not a cleric, because doing a great job of it is very demanding, and the ability to drag rather than just support is a direct function of how knowledgeable/experienced you are with the run in question. Many successful similar games have about the same number (4ish, often less, like 1-2) of potential characters/classes/buildtypes that are "demanded" and acknowledged as extremely powerful carries, a 2nd tier of "yeah we want that but not instead of the thing from 1st group" that could be likened to the "okay" tanks mentioned above--and the rest are acknowledged as simply not such great carries. The concept of "pulling it off" is so tantalizing and tempting that we regularly waste our time playing classes that we know suck, just in the hope of eventually having a "cool" and "unique" tank that's not "just" a "boring" ol core class but something infinitely more fun to play. But prolly better idea to try claiming somce prince wins on the 4 core classes first before you decide how boring cores are or not (and yeah, it's pretty damn boring to play an overpowered toon in Hells that used to be conquered by nondemi L60s with secret subraces and no uber randomized gear).
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Post by excruciator on Mar 28, 2015 15:50:28 GMT
No easy way to rebalance tanks to casters though is there? A more relevant question would be, is there really any need to? It's like arguing that pawns need to be rebalanced to the same power level as backline chess pieces. This is really where most of the issue arises with endgame party formation. It is not a competition between you and your party mates. It is a team game. It is (or at least was, before extensive homogenisation in the name of "easing run formation"...) about party synergy and intelligent group contribution. One of the worst things to ever happen to this server was the popularisation of damage logs. They goad people into playing like idiots and place emphasis where it doesn't belong. A large proportion of the important jobs being fulfilled in a good party won't show in the logs. If people weren't so keen to melee every lemure in sight to pad their damage score, tanks might not have such a bad rep for being party baggage.
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Post by Mister Pin on Mar 28, 2015 16:19:59 GMT
Nerf all casters back to 59 non demi i say! ! ! !
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Post by Twilight Semner on Mar 28, 2015 17:52:51 GMT
A big part of this whole discussion which has already been noted is that our logger obsession makes it easy to think certain classes are better than they are. Take my sally spear ranger for example. 100+ kills a run, generally a couple hundred k damage as well. But it only gets those numbers because it's specifically designed to kill trash mobs. I'm under no illusions of it actually being inherently strong. If I was running it with a group of veteran casters I might barely hit 40 kills and probably not break 100k damage.
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Post by bazukar on Mar 28, 2015 19:28:18 GMT
There is nothing wrong with loggers. They are a valuable tool when it comes to gauging the effectiveness of different aspects of a build over time. The problem comes from people who see skewed or big numbers from one run and think that applies to all runs. There is so much info in a logger that just focusing on one thing is silly. Party comp makes a huge difference as well. And let's face it, there can be a massive disparity in numbers based on builds, and there are a lot of flat out bad builds on this forum being used. The difference between say a well built and a crap paladin/barb/AA etc is massive, where the good build can often outperform the bad by 50-100% in damage output, and sometimes nearly that much in evasion/survivability. And I think that illustration is what many have a problem with.
I would like to respectfully disagree with xiayu on two things. First, barb and staffmaster are nowhere near each other in the damage department right now, and I think staffies are very inferior tanks being completely buff dependant. Second, if slingers are in the plz no tier then AA needs to go there as well. After hitting demi on my AA and doing extensive testing with paradooms slinger on runs we found that they have virtually the same damage output, generally within 4-10k damage of each other. And this was with an AA that had 90%+ complete KV data and HGX, 120+ AB, paragon weapon spec and a wrap.
Edit: To be fair it was AA CC. I have no experience with Wiz CC AA's.
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Post by Paradoom on Mar 28, 2015 23:31:04 GMT
Stormlords in the "Plz no" tier? You haven´t seen a good one then.
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Post by Xiayu on Mar 28, 2015 23:57:45 GMT
Honestly, there is no need to focus that much on where every class should be. My point was, everything that I listed under ‘Other’ (what I called “Okay/Meh/Plz no” tier) belongs together. You can call it whatever you want to, but the fact remains; they just don’t offer as much any of the classes listed above. I simply split it like this so I could comment on them easily.
Obviously the list is not perfect and it was based on my experiences mostly (others would not have been as forgiving as I was, and removed more classes from the useful list, ‘Non-Caster/Caster’). Sorry if I hurt someone’s feelings ^^.
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Post by excruciator on Mar 29, 2015 0:08:49 GMT
Stormlords in the "Plz no" tier? You haven´t seen a good one then. I haven't seen a good charisma based Fighter either. Nonetheless, I'm still pretty confident I would put it in the "plz no" tier. Although maybe that's harsh, it would probably make more sense and provide more to a party than a Stormlord.
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Post by chirality on Mar 29, 2015 4:39:36 GMT
I think staffies are very inferior tanks being completely buff dependant. I agree. I mean once you lose your conceal it's so easy to die! I wish some ways existed to make it so that you never lose your buffs, such as items with castable augury on top of being immune to mord/breach/dispel. Oh well, I guess until that happens, staffies will remain as very inferior tanks.
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Post by louisvilleslugger on Mar 29, 2015 4:42:48 GMT
I think staffies are very inferior tanks being completely buff dependant. I agree. I mean once you lose your conceal it's so easy to die! I wish some ways existed to make it so that you never lose your buffs, such as items with castable augury on top of being immune to mord/breach/dispel. Oh well, I guess until that happens, staffies will remain as very inferior tanks. CoVD ring has augury. Just saying...
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Post by bazukar on Mar 29, 2015 5:33:43 GMT
Because the only way a staffy dies is from mord/breach/dispell of course That augury really helps after a rez right? Troll harder.
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Post by woqued on Mar 29, 2015 6:17:17 GMT
There are no alternatives to cores. Battle-versions of druids and clerics / instakillers such as assassins/ rangers do not come even close to what the actual cores bring to the table. Excruciator put it pretty well imho.
I think if you want to conquer abyss, the mindset really needs to shift away from tagging toons entirely, not to mention tagging meh, bleh and doh toons. I know it's silly to say in a game such as this, but I think "tag-greed" corrupts the learning-as-a-group mentality in a small pug group community. Especially when so many people have like 20 mehs and 3 cores. Should just be genuine interest in playing the game with other people and enjoying the cool areas / loot / achievements the game offers, and that is simply not possible if the ABCD are missing in a group full of various Okay / Meh tier toons.
Bonus! My meh has like x5 demi and prince wins and it totally rocks! You calling it meh must mean that you suck. My meh totally wasn't carried by cores to where it is now. I'll help you any time, as long as you have ABCD covered.
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Post by bazukar on Mar 29, 2015 7:07:58 GMT
There are no alternatives to cores. Battle-versions of druids and clerics / instakillers such as assassins/ rangers do not come even close to what the actual cores bring to the table. Excruciator put it pretty well imho. I think if you want to conquer abyss, the mindset really needs to shift away from tagging toons entirely, not to mention tagging meh, bleh and doh toons. I know it's silly to say in a game such as this, but I think "tag-greed" corrupts the learning-as-a-group mentality in a small pug group community. Especially when so many people have like 20 mehs and 3 cores. Should just be genuine interest in playing the game with other people and enjoying the cool areas / loot / achievements the game offers, and that is simply not possible if the ABCD are missing in a group full of various Okay / Meh tier toons. Bonus! My meh has like x5 demi and prince wins and it totally rocks! You calling it meh must mean that you suck. My meh totally wasn't carried by cores to where it is now. I'll help you any time, as long as you have ABCD covered. Amen. Also, don't think of it as "Ugh I have to play a core", think of it more as taking turns. On many prince fights or abyss tagging runs that I have been on either myself or others have forgone a tag to make run formation smoother and insure success. Sure one week you may miss a tag to play a core, but later it's going to come back to you, and people are always thankful and remember who skips tag to play a core, or go rogue to loot and pick chests for part 3. Doing this makes the run smooth, more fun for all and when it's time for you to get a tag others will gladly step up so you can get caught up. Most runs are won or lost at party formation. Except orcus as prince. Screw that guy.
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Post by tank on Mar 29, 2015 17:24:51 GMT
I feel like this discussion is a little too premature - we should wait for limbo to pass judgement
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